Kill Bill: One of the best movies ever made...

I saw Quentin talk about how it was samurai movies that influenced him - yea yea - but I also heard the cast say that they had to watch countless Kung Fu movies and Westerns. Obviously there were other influences there.

The fact that the stunt and martial arts coordinator was Yuen Woo Ping points to the fact that the main influence was Hong Kong cinema. Gordon Liu is Chinese too. He was the main thug in Orin Ishi's "crazy 88" gang. Some of the sword fighting looked all Wutang and you can thank those two guys for most of that, I guess.

(not that I am a sword expert, I just took a little Iaido back in the day)

Quentin said he picked Sonny Chiba because he watched him in some series that was on the Japanese TV station when he was a kid in LA. Calling Sonny the greatest actor to ever appear in a martial arts movie living today, I guess that is okay. Sonny was trained by the great Mas Oyama and he did a couple of films with Toshiro Mifune. (Toshiro died a few years back) .. Whatever.

I watched Streetfighter the other day and the martial arts wasn't that bad - even though this movie is like the poster boy for the cheesy cliche' martial arts films that followed. Grunting and bugging out his eyes and everything .. if this film was made today it would be considered racist somehow.

There were a lot of films about samurai and ninja that were done by Hong Kong companies back in the day. Duel To The Death, films like that feature samurai and ninja but from a Chinese perspective. I know Quentin is a movie geek but he is not a martial arts geek so I doubt he knows the difference between Japanese and Chinese styles.

I would put Kill Bill volume 1 at about 60% HK cinema, 15% Western and 25% samurai film. Those are my official stats.

In fact, I would say that the main reference was Once Upon a Time In The West, a Sergio Leone film.

I liked Kill Bill. It was cool. It wasn't a total samurai film by any means. Wastrel is right.

[The Wastrel]

Okay look, for reference, this is the position I am arguing against and lifted from Djimbe's c+p job on Blad3. Only for clarification now, because Blad3 has almost succeeded in making everyone believe that I am as incomprehensible as he is:

Blad3 , First you said :


quote:
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What I'm saying is it's far more samurai orientated
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And THEN you said :


quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------Yeah I need to start on samurai movies, only really seen 7 samurai, one other samurai film and an Anime or two.
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If you never really had a lot of Interest or , more importantly , if you havent seen a Large Volume of Samurai Flicks , how could you know ?

[Ice Queen]

Wastrel I understand your point. But did you like the movie? LOL

[Choke]

Originally posted by Ice Queen
Wastrel I understand your point. But did you like the movie? LOL

Ha ha ha!

Is Ice Queen really a girl? - I'm always skeptical about that here. Her art is listed as "Ninjutsu" and she says she has men in her torture rooms. She liked Kill Bill. .. hmm

Anyway, I think he/she has a thing for Wastrel.

[Blad3]

has almost succeeded in making everyone believe that I am as incomprehensible as he is

That's probably because if you read my last "big" post you wouldn't be saying what you're saying.

I told you it was an exsaggeration and frustration of sorts, I was refering to the actual aesthetical content, not the general film style. Admittedly so, as I've only seen a small amount of Samurai films, I haven't deeply analyized those I've seen.

But just a test of your logic: You say how would I know? Well maybe I could have read about them, I could be making a logical assumption, even if I had watched a lot of movies it wouldn't necessarily qaulify me. You don't have to have seen a lot of samurai films, but yes that probably will help (just not necessarily.) What makes you so "qaulified" to be able to accurately analyze and give a technically accurate opinion on a film? Are you a professional film critique? (This is just an example of that logical, of course you can still have an opinion and have it be an accurate one;Maybe you are a critique.)

BUT yes that was an admittence, I don't know enoguh about them, that's WHY I said that, so people wouldn't think I had a vast wealth of knowledge on samurai films. I was simply interested to see what you had to say on the subject i.e. why isn't it samurai-like when there were clearly samurai characters in the film. Due to the film and these posts I've now been reminded to watch more Samurai films. If you're really this interested in that one sentence you can read through my other "big" post.

oh and "incomprehensible"? Just because some one doesn't understand what I'm saying, so I have to explain everything in detail, even if what I orginally said was quite logical, doesn't make me "incomprhensible". < See this sentence? It makes far more sense than yours because I've explained myself, no offence. Just give me time to explain myself if you don't understand something I've said, or if it really was poorly written [:)] It's quite funny you should say that too because I'm not trying to succeed in making you look imcomprhensible at all.

That's not what discussion forums are about IMO - trying to make somebody seem incomprehesible therefore you shouldn't have to spend the time arguing with them. It's about trying to logcially and clearly present your argument to somebody and trying to then understand them. They can then proceed to try and say why you're wrong, or why they simply disagree (e.g. why something is just a matter of taste ) but try and at least argue back with evidence rather than try and dimiss their entire post, "because they don't know what they're talking about". What I'm saying is you should be trying to understand the other person's opinion/knowledge rather than set your agenda to "I must 0wn this person", "I must show you this person doesn't know what they're talking about". This is because they probably do know what they're talking about (at least in my case). It's not about "winning" arguments based on technical grounds, on the actual grammer - on technicalities of the arguments (a lawyer might try and win a case like this) - but to show the person "I'm probably/definitely logically correct and why...", "you're probably/definitely logically incorrect and why". Grammatically correct "slagging-off" is no substitute for a valid, logical and correct (true) argument...

Just because somebody has possibly made one contradiction, you then showing them this equates to an "ownage" (illogically), with out even giving that person time to explain themselves. This is over an INTERNET forum here, you can't reply auotmatically ( but if/when some one does reply READ what they have to say.)

Believe me if I'm incorrect about something I care about, I want to know.

I'm doing this now just to see what you have to post next tbh. [:D]

I evaluate him on that standard because that seems the one everyone wants to apply. Master filmmaker extraordinaire auteur...

As he should be as he is (see his films and the many critques of his films to see why.)

I basically don't understand what the point of an entirely referential film is. Don't enjoy them, and I certainly don't think such needs to be called "One of the greatest films ever made".

The real agenda of all this? You;re astounded that anyone could rate a film such as "kill Bill" so high and have a clue what he's talking about? Even though it is down to taste...

I basically don't understand what the point of an entirely referential film is. Don't enjoy them, and I certainly don't think such needs to be called "One of the greatest films ever made".

When an entirely referential film is made let's talk about that then, but we're talking about kill bill...which isn't entirely refertial as it has a lot of QTs own style, story with some refernece to other films. Especially as the film isn't in any of the genres we've been talking about here, it can hadrly be called entirely referential. But also, when the refences in the film are vastly, vastly better than those films it's refering to (especially were the HK movies are concenrned) then that could be a good "point" on the use of a film with refernce in it. I did still get a feeling of nostalga after watching the film.

I would put Kill Bill volume 1 at about 60% HK cinema, 15% Western and 25% samurai film. Those are my official stats.

But that's a 100% - it also had Qts own style, a uniqueness to it, those states don't account for that. Ifact you could say 50% of it was QT orginal, based around certain refernces in some cases, being completely orginal in others (the beggining for instance.)

[The Wastrel]

DO NOT attribute to me an argument I am not, have not, and will not make! That is a very quick way to get me coming after your blood.

Repeated for emphasis. As to the rest of your "points"...riiiight...

[Blad3]

Excuse me? Is that a summary of my post in one sentence? From somebody else....?

[Blad3]

"DO NOT attribute to me an argument I am not, have not, and will not make! That is a very quick way to get me coming after your blood."

First of al I'm not "comming after your blood", I'm simply debating with you, as I said because I was interested. Also as I said, this isn't about "0wning"....

I did make the argument "...90% samurai..." but I did so out of frustration, exsaggeration etc. like I said.

This hasn't changed my opinion of the film, I still love it (though it may not be in the top twtenty it is still one of the best films ever made IMO) and I'm really getting bored of this particular subject of it it a Samurai Movie, is it a Kung Fu movie. I'll just go and watch some more samurai movies.

I'm thinking this is more of a war of attrition for you than a debate, which isn;' what was intended.

If you want to debate something else with me and whoever else I'll happlily do so though.

[The Wastrel]

All I said Blad3, was that you really couldn't make comments like that. As for the quality of the film...reasonable people can disagree. I'm not actually going to *argue* about whether or not its good. We state our opinions. Still there may be some realm of disagreement. For example: if someone says they liked "Attack of the CLones" because it was so well-written...we can argue about whether or not it was well-written, but not whether or not a person likes it.

[Ice Queen]

Originally posted by 9chambers
Is Ice Queen really a girl? - I'm always skeptical about that here. Her art is listed as "Ninjutsu" and she says she has men in her torture rooms. She liked Kill Bill. .. hmm

Anyway, I think he/she has a thing for Wastrel.

No I'm not a girl....I'm a woman. I stopped being a girl at 15. And I DON'T EVEN KNOW WASTREL!! How can I hae a thing for him? And what? Women don't do ninjutsu? Or like Kill BIll???LOL!

[Blad3]

As for the quality of the film...reasonable people can disagree. I'm not actually going to *argue* about whether or not its good. We state our opinions. Still there may be some realm of disagreement. For example: if someone says they liked "Attack of the CLones" because it was so well-written...we can argue about whether or not it was well-written, but not whether or not a person likes it.

Obviously.

...Yes I can make comments, especially as I explained what I meant. [:D]

[HAPKO3]

Blade: Free piece of advice:

Try to work on organizing your thoughts in a more coherent and brief manner. You posts are simply too long and way to convoluted.

[Blad3]

That's definitely true, but I do it for me - because I'm interested in putting my thoughts into a disscussion, I like logically arguing/debating. I suppose if I tried I could make my posts far more concise.

[Blad3]

Attack of the clones, now there's a well written film...
But seriously I liked the film a lot, it had good actors for the most part, wonderful special effects and action sequences above all the story was just excellent as always; the one poor quality aspect or the one bad thing about it was the script. If fact if the script was good I'd say it would have gone down as one of the best films made, a classic but now it'll only be considered a favortie by fans of Star Wars, generally speaking. EP3 will be the best, I think he can REALLY make an excellent memorable film this time, up there with the likes of A New Hope...

Then he can return to his American Graffiti days, making more true classics like that.

One thing I want to know about Wastrel - do you watch a lot of films? Are you "film fan/buff"? Just interested...