Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Red Flag Law Set to Pass in New Mexico

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    #16
    Originally posted by BKR View Post

    OK, thanks for the clarification. I was hoping you would be able to shed some light on that.

    The Baker is very similar sounding to what we do in Idaho for involuntary mental holds/commitments.

    What is the burden of proof for the Red Flag law in Florida? The one in NM apparently is probable cause. Which is a pretty weak burden to meet.

    I can see using PC found by a judge for the initial hearing, but once the defendant (respondent ?) shows up in court and gets his/her hearing, what is required as burden of proof in the Florida Flag Law?

    If it's still PC, again, that's low level stuff. You are talking taking away a person's civil rights (2A) for up to a year. That puts it at the level of a preliminary hearing.
    Yeah, it's the same. A judge just needs to think it is reasonable. I don't know of any instances yet where the person has tried to fight it in court. That's what it is going to take to get some real parameters on all of this, I think.
    Combatives training log.

    Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

    Drum thread

    Pavel Tsatsouline: kettlebell workouts give you “cardio without the dishonour of aerobics”.

    "Disliking someone is not evidence of wrongdoing or malfeasance or even bias." --Dung Beatles

    Comment


      #17
      Originally posted by Diesel_tke View Post

      Yeah, it's the same. A judge just needs to think it is reasonable. I don't know of any instances yet where the person has tried to fight it in court. That's what it is going to take to get some real parameters on all of this, I think.
      Can they get a court appointed attorney, or is it a civil thing?

      I bet it's civil, that way nobody can afford an attorney, and has to fight against the PA...

      What a shit-show.
      Falling for Judo since 1980

      "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

      "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

      "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

      Comment


        #18
        Originally posted by BKR View Post

        Can they get a court appointed attorney, or is it a civil thing?

        I bet it's civil, that way nobody can afford an attorney, and has to fight against the PA...

        What a shit-show.
        Yeah, I'm not sure.
        Combatives training log.

        Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

        Drum thread

        Pavel Tsatsouline: kettlebell workouts give you “cardio without the dishonour of aerobics”.

        "Disliking someone is not evidence of wrongdoing or malfeasance or even bias." --Dung Beatles

        Comment


          #19
          Originally posted by Diesel_tke View Post

          Yeah, I'm not sure.
          https://www.politifact.com/factcheck...gun-law-works/

          OK, so it's a civil thing, no public defender.
          Broward’s chief judge Jack Tuter said that when a law enforcement agency determines a person poses a threat to himself or others, the agency requests a risk protection order. A judge holds a hearing within 24 hours with the police officers who swear to the allegations. If the judge enters the temporary risk protection order, the judge will order a search of the respondent's home to secure any firearms or ammunition.

          Within a couple of weeks, a judge holds a final hearing at which point a person can oppose the order. This is a civil process, so the respondent is allowed to hire a lawyer but there is no right to a court-appointed lawyer.

          Tuter estimated that in 90% of the cases, the orders are agreed to by the respondent. The order can last for up to a year and then law enforcement can seek to renew it. The person’s name is also entered into the national database to prevent federal dealers from selling the person a firearm.

          Risk protection orders require judges to take a different outlook than they would for a typical criminal case in which a judge is evaluating past behavior. Judges are asked to predict a person’s future behavior ⁠— "whether the person is going to carry out the threat," Tuter said.
          Falling for Judo since 1980

          "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

          "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

          "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

          Comment


            #20
            Originally posted by BKR View Post

            https://www.politifact.com/factcheck...gun-law-works/

            OK, so it's a civil thing, no public defender.
            Broward’s chief judge Jack Tuter said that when a law enforcement agency determines a person poses a threat to himself or others, the agency requests a risk protection order. A judge holds a hearing within 24 hours with the police officers who swear to the allegations. If the judge enters the temporary risk protection order, the judge will order a search of the respondent's home to secure any firearms or ammunition.

            Within a couple of weeks, a judge holds a final hearing at which point a person can oppose the order. This is a civil process, so the respondent is allowed to hire a lawyer but there is no right to a court-appointed lawyer.

            Tuter estimated that in 90% of the cases, the orders are agreed to by the respondent. The order can last for up to a year and then law enforcement can seek to renew it. The person’s name is also entered into the national database to prevent federal dealers from selling the person a firearm.

            Risk protection orders require judges to take a different outlook than they would for a typical criminal case in which a judge is evaluating past behavior. Judges are asked to predict a person’s future behavior ⁠— "whether the person is going to carry out the threat," Tuter said.
            So no right to due process then?? What happens when there's a fuck up such as a name error or address error?? My big problem with the so called red flag laws are chances for abuse or mistakes that have no real way for correction. If someone gets fucked over it's on them to spend $50,000 plus to see any real justice.

            Comment


              #21
              Originally posted by Bneterasedmynam View Post

              So no right to due process then?? What happens when there's a fuck up such as a name error or address error?? My big problem with the so called red flag laws are chances for abuse or mistakes that have no real way for correction. If someone gets fucked over it's on them to spend $50,000 plus to see any real justice.
              Yep, it's all fun and games until your rights start getting violated. It's what gun rights people argue all the time. But here we are. Just have to hope that the fear mongering gun rights people are not correct when they always say that this is just the beginning of the government trying to take all our guns so they can disarm the citizens.
              Combatives training log.

              Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

              Drum thread

              Pavel Tsatsouline: kettlebell workouts give you “cardio without the dishonour of aerobics”.

              "Disliking someone is not evidence of wrongdoing or malfeasance or even bias." --Dung Beatles

              Comment


                #22
                Originally posted by Bneterasedmynam View Post

                So no right to due process then?? What happens when there's a fuck up such as a name error or address error?? My big problem with the so called red flag laws are chances for abuse or mistakes that have no real way for correction. If someone gets fucked over it's on them to spend $50,000 plus to see any real justice.
                It’ll be the same as the thread I started about the ammunition mistakes in the armory. It is feel good protect the public bullshidt, which will only affect mainly law abiding citizens.

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by Bneterasedmynam View Post

                  So no right to due process then?? What happens when there's a fuck up such as a name error or address error?? My big problem with the so called red flag laws are chances for abuse or mistakes that have no real way for correction. If someone gets fucked over it's on them to spend $50,000 plus to see any real justice.
                  No, there is due process. You get a hearing, you just can't apply for a public defender. So that makes it harder. Because it is a civil action, the County PA won't be involved. Which is weird, because the cops ARE or can be involved.

                  In involuntary committal cases, the county PA is involved. The respondent can apply for a public defender.

                  My concern is that they are leaving a potentially mentally ill person running around, supposedly without firearms.

                  I get that not everyone who is subject to a protection order (civil protection order in Idaho) is necessarily in need of being involuntarily held for mental evaluation.

                  But a CPOR doesn't take away property. I think a judge here can order that at part of a CPOR or no contact order, but, not sure.

                  So you can have your rights taken away based on PC only, is what bothers me the most, and you have to hire your own attorney.

                  It's kinda like fucking FISA court...
                  Falling for Judo since 1980

                  "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

                  "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

                  "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Originally posted by BKR View Post

                    No, there is due process. You get a hearing, you just can't apply for a public defender. So that makes it harder. Because it is a civil action, the County PA won't be involved. Which is weird, because the cops ARE or can be involved.

                    In involuntary committal cases, the county PA is involved. The respondent can apply for a public defender.

                    My concern is that they are leaving a potentially mentally ill person running around, supposedly without firearms.

                    I get that not everyone who is subject to a protection order (civil protection order in Idaho) is necessarily in need of being involuntarily held for mental evaluation.

                    But a CPOR doesn't take away property. I think a judge here can order that at part of a CPOR or no contact order, but, not sure.

                    So you can have your rights taken away based on PC only, is what bothers me the most, and you have to hire your own attorney.

                    It's kinda like fucking FISA court...
                    Due process is supposed to involve a presumption of innocence. Red flag laws make you automatically guilty without benefit of a trial, then you are forced to prove your innocence after the fact. It's a side step of rights. The least they could do is have an automatic restitution if the findings show wrongful prosecution, but we both know full well that is not going to happen.

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Originally posted by Bneterasedmynam View Post

                      Due process is supposed to involve a presumption of innocence. Red flag laws make you automatically guilty without benefit of a trial, then you are forced to prove your innocence after the fact. It's a side step of rights. The least they could do is have an automatic restitution if the findings show wrongful prosecution, but we both know full well that is not going to happen.
                      I see your point, but, no, due process is not only a criminal thing.

                      Note that the Red Flag Laws are not charging anyone with a crime. They are (apparently) civil matters.

                      For example, involuntary committal is not a criminal matter. usually they involve some sort of 48 or 72 hour hold in protective custody, where the respondent gets evaluated by one or 2 professional examiners (often but not always MDs).

                      BUT you do get a public defender if you cannot afford your own attorney. In my state anyway.

                      The due process involved is that you get to have a hearing where you get to defend yourself eventually.

                      You used the word prosecution. Again, these Red Flag laws are apparently not "prosecutions".

                      I don't like them, I think as IIF pointed out they are a feel-good kind of thing.







                      Falling for Judo since 1980

                      "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

                      "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

                      "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Decent article on REd Flag laws and due process, etc.
                        https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/researc...er-due-process

                        HMM, this one is a bit more biased sounding, but, interesting.
                        https://reason.com/2020/02/11/new-da...ndment-rights/

                        Some examples that are disturbing. Cherry picking, but, interesting.
                        https://reason.com/2019/10/06/states...ndment-rights/
                        Last edited by BKR; 3/05/2020 6:27pm, .
                        Falling for Judo since 1980

                        "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

                        "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

                        "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

                        Comment

                        Collapse

                        Edit this module to specify a template to display.

                        Working...
                        X