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    defensive kicking technique

    in my style, when we throw a kick, one of the arms is thrust down between the legs to protect the groin area. the dropping of this hand is timed with the snap of the kick. the other hand guards the chest and face area. the overall motion is like a 'scissoring' of the arms as you deliver the kick. most often used with a front kick of thigh or hip height.

    i find that scissoring my guard as i kick has several advantages:

    1)potential groin block-in kuntao, counter kicking to the groin against kicks is a primary tactic.
    2)it stabilizes you more when you kick, you are less likely to lose your balance
    3)scissor guard covers your centerline points as you kick. this helps to defend against counters to the torso.
    4)the arms are 'chambered' for followups while simoultaneously providing a centerline guard.
    5)for knife/stick work it is crucial to have a good low line guard to protect your groin. better your hand gets cut or smashed rather than taking a hit to the bladder,perineum,or femoral artery. lets not forget your 'goods' either, they need protecting. i would hate to get my nuts smashed by a baton.

    does any other style use this method of defense while kicking? the only one that i ever heard of that used it was vovinam, vietnamese shaolin.

    peace.

    " a cow doesnt whinny, and a horse has no udder, back is to the sides, and sideways is straight ahead"

    #2
    I usally will trade you throw a kick i throw a nice hard punch to your jaw.

    You throw a left kick i lean in with a right.
    Once a fighter, Always a fighter. Shawn
    -Styles i train in-
    Judo
    Bjj
    Mtkickboxing
    Western boxing
    Wrestling

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      #3
      Explain more please.

      In the front kick scenario you described where does each hand start, then move to, and when do they return?



      <marquee>Dragon , Snake , Tiger , Leopard , Crane. R.M.F.A.F.T.A.T.! </marquee>

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        #4
        I am curious, since I do not block like this, balance aside, how many blocks would you say you've caught (deflected) with this hand?

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          #5
          No don't know of anything called a scissor block, but I just spent the last few minutes messing around and I think I figured it out.

          And no, I haven't really seen anyone use this in the way you describe. I've seen people drop their hands when they kick, but not for the same purpose.

          One time we do use something like this is in counter kicking.

          Say we are in right leads with our hands up by our faces.

          You throw a kick to my groin with your front leg.

          I respond by making a small, almost hopping, shuffle step forward and at a 45 degree angle to my right away from the kick getting myself of the line of your attack.

          As I step my left hand drops down to a low guard position, my right stays up, and I counter kick your support leg with my lead leg.

          As a rule of thumb I don't defend below the waist with my hands. My stances are not low enough for me to effective cover my groin with a tradtional downward block anyway. I rely more on body positioning and leg blocks.

          I have kicked a guy in the hand, propelling that hand with suffcient force into his groin to cause him injury. I'm sure the blow was lessened, I was able to turn his "block" into my "strike".

          <marquee>Dragon , Snake , Tiger , Leopard , Crane. R.M.F.A.F.T.A.T.! </marquee>

          Edited by - Punisher on June 01 2003 03:07:28

          Comment


            #6
            "Are you familiar with the scissor blocks? Im assuming its sililar to that. Am I wrong?"

            no, it is a vertical scissors style block that is orientated on the centerline between the two fighters. the arms are held so that the backs of them face the opponent.

            "I am curious, since I do not block like this, balance aside, how many blocks would you say you've caught (deflected) with this hand?'

            quite a few(hundreds) direct blocks of counter kick attempts, and many blocks of abdominal strikes due to the forearm positioning. i must add that the way our kicks are delivered is by 'shrinking' or crouching with a slight bend of the standing leg. this lowers the shoulder making easier to reach low enough to defend. the palm must be held 'blade down' and turned to protect the fingers. this also ensures that the back of arm is facing the opponent. as well, the heel is lifted in line with the groin, and retracted along the same path. this helps to guard you as well. the combination of 'seating',low guard hand, and defensive extension of the kick makes for an excellent low line defense.

            as far as balance goes, i find this method of hand use also tends to counterbalance you by keeping your spine straight. you cant lean back, and still have the low guard in place because your shoulder will be too far away. the actual motion of 'scissoring' as you kicks adds a more dynamic element to this counterlevering effect. it is very stable.



            peace.

            " a cow doesnt whinny, and a horse has no udder, back is to the sides, and sideways is straight ahead"

            Comment


              #7
              'As I step my left hand drops down to a low guard position, my right stays up, and I counter kick your support leg with my lead leg.'

              like that except i would hit with my left kick instead of my right. unless that is what you mean. kinda of confused by which leg is lead.

              'As a rule of thumb I don't defend below the waist with my hands. My stances are not low enough for me to effective cover my groin with a tradtional downward block anyway. I rely more on body positioning and leg blocks."

              we tend to drop a fair amount as we kick. the kicks are generally no higher than the hips. the legs are more often the target. this 'seating' adds a lot of compressive power to the kick. you do have to go a little low to do this and as well it helps to rotate the toe of the kicking leg away from the centerline a bit so as to 'open' the hips. this will make it easier to put your arm into place.

              the arm that is down must be bent at the elbow. this way the elbow will be in position to protect the liver area around the short ribs and the upper arm shields the upper ribcage on that side. if your arm is straight, your ribcage and abdomen will be open on that side. as well, if you block a forceful kick with a low palm and your elbow is straight you will probably damage one of the joints in your arm. no bend in the elbow means no 'shock absorber' capability. a high 'short arm' palm is used to protect the chest and head. together they 'close' the centerline.

              this kicking technique is very rapid due to its low target height and the leverage dynamics involved with executing the arm scissoring simoultaneously with the kick snapping. speed, drop rooting, and snap are the sources of power.

              this block is specifically for the lower pelvic region. attacks below that level are dealt with by the legs and stepping, as you stated.

              "I have kicked a guy in the hand, propelling that hand with suffcient force into his groin to cause him injury. I'm sure the blow was lessened, I was able to turn his "block" into my "strike"."

              my hand got jacked up alot before i learned how to do it properly. but that would have been my groin many times. was he trying to do this? or was it inadvertant?

              i do not kick without my low guard.

              one variation of note is to punch directly downward instead of using the palm block. the theory is to punch the instep or ankle of low front kick attack, as you counter with your own kick to his groin or standing leg(knee). the timing and angle is a little different.but, the chance of knuckling someones shin bone makes me shy away from this one particular application.


              peace.

              Edited by - kuntaokid on June 01 2003 03:51:16

              Comment


                #8
                Hands up when you kick is the rule at my dojo. But one hand down for a low guard isn't a bad idea. I'll fuck around with it during kumite.

                _______________________________________
                Out of doubt, out of dark to the day's rising
                I came singing in the sun, sword unsheathing.
                To hope's end I rode and to heart's breaking:
                Now for wrath, now for ruin and a red nightfall!
                "The longer I live the more I see that I am never wrong about anything, and that all the pains that I have so humbly taken to verify my notions have only wasted my time."

                -- George Bernard Shaw

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                  #9
                  come in on an angle using the kick to enter and gain distance for a backfist followup using the low guard hand. you can crash in with the kick and your shoulder. the kick draws attention, and movement to defend low, strike high with the backfist in quick sequence with good timing.

                  peace.

                  " a cow doesnt whinny, and a horse has no udder, back is to the sides, and sideways is straight ahead"

                  Comment


                    #10
                    The idea is contained in Golden-rooster. There is a concept of "separating the energies" wherein the rising and sinking are simultaneous and Golden-rooster is the method of internalizing this concept.

                    The scissoring action of the arms in Golden-rooster is the same as you describe, only more condensed/concealed in the movement.

                    As for each point you address for its efficacy:

                    1)-Same Purpose in TCC

                    2)-Separating the energies

                    3)-Same purpose again

                    4)-Continuous motion and sets up the falling step in TCC. The only thing I'd add is that I see too many TCC people hanging the step rather than having it drop in the advancing or follow-up from the intial action of kicking (or kneeing in the case of Golden-rooster's relatively closer quarters method). The same potential for error of hanging the step exists in Hsing-I while executing Drilling-fist applications because the same concept of separating the energies isn't learned by necessity.

                    5)-This is the attrition I was talking about in the knife/stick thread...not a very popular idea unless the context is understood.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I'm not too sure I fully understand. Can you get a clip or a pic up somewhere?

                      When or IF I kick, I try to make sure the person is moving forward or backwards or to a side sometimes so they can't suddenly lift a leg back to kick me. And I can also use chi sao to get in close and tie up the arms. I've never worried about counter kicks at all.....Then again my competition is shit. I need to find some MT or TKD guys to spar with.



                      " i must add that the way our kicks are delivered is by 'shrinking' or crouching with a slight bend of the standing leg."
                      i would say something about similarities but that would bore you
                      :)

                      --
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                        #12
                        "like that except i would hit with my left kick instead of my right. unless that is what you mean. kinda of confused by which leg is lead."

                        In my scenario my right is my lead leg. I drop my rear hand and my front hand stays basically were it is.

                        Because it is a lead lead kick, it has to be a dirrect stomping type, like a side, to the front of the leg have. If I wanted to counter with a front or a round I would use my rear(left) leg, to the back or side of the support leg.

                        The reason the hands drops is a little bit of insurance in case I didn't get off the line enough and I know where my oppnent is kicking. If he was kicking high, my hand would obiviously stay up.


                        Because you are moving to the side and forward at the same time this is useful against almost any kick, front, side, or round.





                        <marquee>Dragon , Snake , Tiger , Leopard , Crane. R.M.F.A.F.T.A.T.! </marquee>

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                          #13
                          Not trying to be sour grapes here, but can one hand really block a kick? One arm blocking a good kick is kinda hard to do, and I don't want to leave my head open to a hit. But if I saw a pic, again, I might understand it better.

                          <Me> John, what do you know about Zen Buddhism? <John> *smacks me*
                          <John> I'd have to smack you sometime...
                          Katana, on 540 kicks: "Hang from a ceiling fan with both hands. Flail your feet out and ask people to walk into you as you hit their face."

                          Comment


                            #14
                            One hand can do it Nihil, body alignment and arm positioning it where you'll get the strength needed to do it though. The way kuntaokid is talking, your arm will be positioned so that if the kick comes in for the groin from underneath it will be a strong block. The body is sinking in as you kick, the arm si coming down using the power of the lats, tricepts, some of the chest and a few other minor groups. Its a lot more muscle than you think. This, combined with the downward thrusting motion, will give you a strong block. If the kick is more a front thrust and hits the back of the arm, it will deflect and give you the chance to roll the body with the attack instead of taking it right on the center line.


                            At least, that's my thoughts and experience with such technique. Not that I've had a lot of experience with it other than a reflexive action taken during a 'kick vs. kick' type occurance.

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                              #15
                              I was thinking a low block *something karate/tkd like, linear forearm block* against something like a thai roundhouse - THAT would be a losing proposition for the blocker, definitely. But I guess one arm could work depending on the kind of kick being used against you.

                              I just like shin blocks better, but thats me.

                              <Me> John, what do you know about Zen Buddhism? <John> *smacks me*
                              <John> I'd have to smack you sometime...
                              Katana, on 540 kicks: "Hang from a ceiling fan with both hands. Flail your feet out and ask people to walk into you as you hit their face."

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