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    Special Forces and unarmed combat

    So what exactly do the "special forces" train in that makes them so respected by martial arts hobbiest?

    And any voluntary training is not the same as a compulsory, part of the set regime that gets you that badge/beret/promotion/etc.

    Its carries the mystic bs about it but is not called on its bullshido much, if at all. The one thread I did find on it sounded sympathetic instead of the usual bullshido "your busted and deserve it" attitude.

    I read the book Bravo Two Zero by an SAS guy, thought wow, but then read its bullshido busting sequel by another ex SAS desert specialist who debunked everything about it*. The most interesting debunk was that they learn nothing about unarmed combat except a quick, very basic run through at best. And no SAS soldier is trained to use a knife in a tight corner. The only reason they would have a combat knife is if the soldier took their own from home with them.

    Just thinking that since its commonly treated with the vague respect of champions, it might need including on one of the faqs for others not to confuse the accepted mystery with the reality.

    Maybe its the uniform, or we are taught vague superhuman stories about times past. Or maybe I've met too many big talking, little detail ex service men enjoying the immediate honour everyone rolls out to them at the mere mention of the word army.

    *Interesting tid bit - Iraqi special forces had to rush Iranian trenches during their war and bring back live enemies! Since it impresses the otherwise skeptical ex - SAS officer interviewing them, it impresses me.

    #2
    I will say, without being an expert (Asia), that todays recruits are better trained in hand to hand than the SF operators that were taught hand to hand years ago. The military combatives program has taken leaps and bounds in the last few years. As a side note hand to hand combat would be extremely low on the list of priorities for a SF operator.

    What makes SF seem so mystical to the martial arts crowd? Movies.

    Comment


      #3
      Errr.... special forces don't really rely on unarmed combat. We respect them because they are true martial artists and true warriors.

      Nobody thinks they can win a UFC or PRIDE. But then again, if you sent Vanderlei or Fedor over to the Middle East or Africa, how long do you figure they'd survive?

      Completely different combat. Martial arts aren't just about unarmed combat.

      Comment


        #4
        But just like kung fun, etc, the myth is allowed to go on.

        Comment


          #5
          And I seriously rank the unarmed toughness of past generations above our own. Things were more physical back then, all round.

          Comment


            #6
            Doesn't some of the mystique come from the fact that these guys are in great shape, mentally and physically tough, and very familiar with violence?

            I mean, even if it doesn't make them technically skilled martial artists, those qualities see like prerequisites for any martial arts program. I would hazard that these guys probably (generally) have great potential as unarmed martial artists.

            Also, I think some of the mystique comes from this factor: I *want* to believe that our SF operatives have super-dooper-killer-skills b/c they're killing terrorists!

            Doesn't make it true, but its understandible to me that people might give military personnel a bit of leeway in the BS department.

            That said, I know very few people who have served our country, and I really know next to nothing about military training.

            I'd be interested to know what kinds of skills are taught in basic training? Required training?

            I imagine there are probably optional programs too?

            -Jordan
            -Jordan

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by vladoshi
              The only reason they would have a combat knife is if the soldier took their own from home with them.
              I don't know how it works in other countries, but the current bayonets of the American military are, in fact, a big knives with fixtures to attach to a rifle.

              U.S. Army M9 Bayonet


              USMC OKC-3S Bayonet

              Comment


                #8
                movies put the man in comando

                although my experience of this is limited, my sisters husban is a sargent or sergent (my spelling fo thsi is uncertain) in the british army, being keen to learn i asked him what he knew of unarmed combat after his long time of service in the army, in my humble dojo(lol my kitchen) the best he could muster were simple arm locks as taught to the police to subgigate the enemy, these techniques were only taught to restrain violent protesters(or at least only in the context of) i found this lack of skill highly shocking but then again, who needs martail arts skills wjenm they are trained every day in the use of their weapon, i guess for them it becomes a limb, to us we have punches to them they have SA80's. anyway, he tought me the 5 locks they knew, he didnt know i knew any martial arts because i wnated to to be taught them as a complette bigger so id get instructed how they instrcueted, him, the quality was lacklustre and quite frankly shocking for a rank that high, and a position to train men, on the other hand, on holiday with him in ireland,at a shooting range, he blew me away with his shooting accuracy and ability, i guess armies dont much enjoy martial arts as a part of their curriculum anymore, but i guess a wise soldier should train MA;s anyway, because 5 locks is a shit excuse for something to rely on just in case...anyway thats my 2 cents on the matter, much love

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by vladoshi
                  So what exactly do the "special forces" train in that makes them so respected by martial arts hobbiest?

                  And any voluntary training is not the same as a compulsory, part of the set regime that gets you that badge/beret/promotion/etc.

                  Its carries the mystic bs about it but is not called on its bullshido much, if at all. The one thread I did find on it sounded sympathetic instead of the usual bullshido "your busted and deserve it" attitude.

                  I read the book Bravo Two Zero by an SAS guy, thought wow, but then read its bullshido busting sequel by another ex SAS desert specialist who debunked everything about it*. The most interesting debunk was that they learn nothing about unarmed combat except a quick, very basic run through at best. And no SAS soldier is trained to use a knife in a tight corner. The only reason they would have a combat knife is if the soldier took their own from home with them.

                  Just thinking that since its commonly treated with the vague respect of champions, it might need including on one of the faqs for others not to confuse the accepted mystery with the reality.

                  Maybe its the uniform, or we are taught vague superhuman stories about times past. Or maybe I've met too many big talking, little detail ex service men enjoying the immediate honour everyone rolls out to them at the mere mention of the word army.

                  *Interesting tid bit - Iraqi special forces had to rush Iranian trenches during their war and bring back live enemies! Since it impresses the otherwise skeptical ex - SAS officer interviewing them, it impresses me.

                  SF guys are always seen as uber baddass because of several things 1) the training they got throough is very physical and mentally demanding. 2) the are constantly honing their skills. But fore the longest time (I would say at least since WWII, possibly the Korean war) H2H wasn't given much attention because of the huge advancements in weaponry. It wasn't until recently that H2H was actively addressed at all. For the most part H2H consisted of one day in Basic, which wasn't hardly anything at all, and the occasional guest training.

                  The training we do now is far better than anything before but, although effective, its main purpose is not to make uber badasses out of soldiers but to instill a warrior mindset, the willing ness to engage the enemy. Still SF guys really aren't better than regular joes when it comes to H2H unless they take an intrest on their own.


                  Oh and yes we do get issued combat knives (not just bayonets) form time to time.
                  ______
                  Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

                  RIP SOLDIER

                  Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
                  -Gene, GODHAND

                  You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
                  The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
                  -Daniel Tosh

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Tommy-joe
                    although my experience of this is limited, my sisters husban is a sargent or sergent (my spelling fo thsi is uncertain) in the british army, being keen to learn i asked him what he knew of unarmed combat after his long time of service in the army, in my humble dojo(lol my kitchen) the best he could muster were simple arm locks as taught to the police to subgigate the enemy, these techniques were only taught to restrain violent protesters(or at least only in the context of) i found this lack of skill highly shocking but then again, who needs martail arts skills wjenm they are trained every day in the use of their weapon, i guess for them it becomes a limb, to us we have punches to them they have SA80's. anyway, he tought me the 5 locks they knew, he didnt know i knew any martial arts because i wnated to to be taught them as a complette bigger so id get instructed how they instrcueted, him, the quality was lacklustre and quite frankly shocking for a rank that high, and a position to train men, on the other hand, on holiday with him in ireland,at a shooting range, he blew me away with his shooting accuracy and ability, i guess armies dont much enjoy martial arts as a part of their curriculum anymore, but i guess a wise soldier should train MA;s anyway, because 5 locks is a shit excuse for something to rely on just in case...anyway thats my 2 cents on the matter, much love
                    Are you retarded?

                    Please learn how to spell and use punctuation.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I would think that because they are training to kill crites, they are the "true martial artists" that train to be and will be in a life or death situation as opposed to training for competition or even hand to hand no holds barred rules where no matter what happens, we get to go home alive.

                      No matter what we train in, we don't take it to the next level, the level of killing your opponent.

                      How could you not respect someone that trains in a "league" where there is no tapping or TKOs or points systems who trains in the "arts of mars" by learning to stay alive on the battlefield?

                      A bullet in your ass means a bullet in your ass.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        I know military combatives have come a long way in the last several years. I got out of the Marines in 98 and up until that point, what they were teaching was pathetic. From what I understand, that's pretty much representative of the other services at the time, too.

                        The methods may have improved since then, but IMO it will always be almost impossible to train large numbers of serious martial artists in a military style setting. First of all, hand-to-hand will never be a top priority for modern warfare training (and it shouldn't be). Secondly, martial arts is something you have to enjoy to become really good at, and the military has a way of sucking the fun out of training that should be awesome. Also, despite the fact that the public likes to think of Special Forces as supermen, they're just people, and not everybody digs martial arts.

                        That said, I hope they continue to improve and make the training worthwhile.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by theraydiator
                          Doesn't some of the mystique come from the fact that these guys are in great shape, mentally and physically tough, and very familiar with violence?
                          I think it's mostly that plus they are in a tight knit group that are trained to have each other's backs so I'd imagine if you picked a fight with one there's a good chance you've picked a fight with a whole bunch of tough dudes. A competent martial artist might not have many problems fucking up a single spec ops soldier but he's gonna get his shit wrecked by 6 of them.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by War Phalange
                            Errr.... special forces don't really rely on unarmed combat. We respect them because they are true martial artists and true warriors.

                            Nobody thinks they can win a UFC or PRIDE. But then again, if you sent Vanderlei or Fedor over to the Middle East or Africa, how long do you figure they'd survive?

                            Completely different combat. Martial arts aren't just about unarmed combat.
                            Actually I think Wanderlei has been in the Brazilian army.
                            Rad ki was made up by adolescents. I do not know who created trad ki but it was not made by adolescents. your an ass dude, Im not being a little bitch you are, your past the level of a bitch. Your beyond Bitch! If im easting my time with ki and psi, then your wasting time to prove frauds, and all shit like that! -theoutsider

                            Kick boxing is ok, but don't expect do beat a man like Rickson Gracie with that. You need a real martial art. You need Xing Yi Quan. -Emptyflower

                            The splits, how ever, have a few martial uses. Doing the splits for me, can put my fists in testical strike range.

                            dont ignore the Art for the Martial or else your just kick boxing

                            Yes i am serious, there are kicks that can block punches. we have them in Moo duk kwan.
                            I want to learn how to use them in case my arm gets broken in a fight.
                            what would you have me do? if my arm gets broke, not block punches? -sempi-stone

                            Comment


                              #15
                              I can tell you that as of 2003, there were no (officially taught) combatives in the Q course (sometimes impromtu grappling classes would occur with one instructor but they weren't a part of any structured curriculum). In fact, someone asked a question similar to this during the course and was rudely informed that: 1) they were dumb for asking and 2)that if hand to hand combat was needed, shit had gone very, very wrong.
                              Last edited by xingyifa; 6/11/2006 12:27am, .

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