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    aliveness training and new students

    this is a question for the instructors who do alive training drills. if you train at a school with alive training, i guess i would like to hear what you think, but primarily this is for the instructors.

    just to be clear about aliveness, i am talking about building progressive resistance until both the attacker and defender in any drill are giving 100%.

    i have been adding in alive drills at my school more and more, and the students have been loving the idea, and improving their skills a lot.

    an example of one of these drills would be takedown/throw drills:

    1) we start of with zero resistance, in the clinch partners alternate various throws and takedowns back and forth.

    2) after a round of that we up the resistance a bit (i.e. move around and don't give them the throw/takedown unless they have the position and timing just right.)

    3) then we do a 4 minute round of full resistance where for 1 minute at a time there is an attacker trying to take the other down, and a defender trying to keep standing. the defender is not trying to reverse, only keep standing. every minute the partners switch roles.

    my question is, in your schools, how do you ease new students into these drills (i mean the people who just don't have any skills or control yet.)

    the reason i ask is that in a recent class i had a couple of less experienced students trying this drill for the first time, and the defender suplexed the attacker onto his head!

    we were lucky and the guy who was thrown was fine except for a bump on the head, but i am wondering what i could have done to better explain the drill.

    i told them their roles, i explained the goals of the drill and the fact that reversing the throw was not one of the goals.

    anything else? how do you guys work people into these sorts of drills?
    "Face punches are an essential character building part of a martial art. You don't truly love your children unless you allow them to get punched in the face." - chi-conspiricy
    "When I was a little boy, I had a sailor suit, but it didn't mean I was in the Navy." - Mtripp on the subject of a 5 year old karate black belt
    "Without actual qualifications to be a Zen teacher, your instructor is just another roundeye raping Asian culture for a buck." - Errant108
    "Seriously, who gives a fuck what you or Errant think? You're Asian males, everyone just ignores you, unless you're in a krotty movie." - new2bjj

    #2
    The sad fact is that some people will get scared away by "alive" training, especially those making the jump from a more sport (point sparring) style. I wouldn't let one incident derail your good work, it sounds as if your club is training properly, if you "soften up" you'll lose people who want to learn. Just make safety a priority and make sure everyone knows what their in for.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by Ming Loyalist
      the reason i ask is that in a recent class i had a couple of less experienced students trying this drill for the first time, and the defender suplexed the attacker onto his head!
      PROGRESSIVE resistance n00b!

      Damn!

      Noone can practice with 'Aliveness' if you are fucking dead!
      "You know what I like about you, William? You like guns AND meditation."

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Ming Loyalist
        then we do a 4 minute round of full resistance where for 1 minute at a time there is an attacker trying to take the other down, and a defender trying to keep standing. the defender is not trying to reverse, only keep standing. every minute the partners switch roles.
        Not to slight what it takes to stand up, but this drill is a lot harder on the person trying to do the attack. Have you considered putting people together in groups of three with two people alternating attacking at 30-45 second intervals and letting the defender work for 2+ minutes before switching roles around? This way, the attacker is always fresher. You can also use this to get the attacker to stop wasting so much time thinking about setting it up and just pour the pressure on.

        Also, it might be helpful to break it up into phases: A couple of weeks, the defenderis allowed only to avoid. Next couple weeks, they can stop, jam and avoid. After that, alow specific full counters (and hopefully you've taught them how not to kill each other by then via suplay or salto.)


        You're in control. It's your class, your liability, and your insurance. Don't let dumbasses who don't listen join in any reindeer games. :smile:
        Last edited by Tom Kagan; 12/30/2005 2:18pm, .
        Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.
        "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

        "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

        My Bullshido fan club threads:
        Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
        Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
        Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
        Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
        Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a pussy or just cruising for some
        I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
        TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
        ATTN TOM KAGAN
        World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
        Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
        I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
        Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.

        Comment


          #5
          Restrict what type of takedowns beginners can do. They should not be doing suplexes, plain and simple.

          Give them a variety that work different set ups, a couple shoots, a couple back steps, a controlled one or two from the back. Keep them low impact, and stress the set up, not the throw.

          Because if they can get a suplex, they can probably also get a lower impact throw off the same setup, and that is all they need to be working on at this point.

          Comment


            #6
            thanks for the advice, good advice all around.

            and for the record, he never learned to suplex from me!!! it certainly wasn't one of the techniques i listed for the drill.
            "Face punches are an essential character building part of a martial art. You don't truly love your children unless you allow them to get punched in the face." - chi-conspiricy
            "When I was a little boy, I had a sailor suit, but it didn't mean I was in the Navy." - Mtripp on the subject of a 5 year old karate black belt
            "Without actual qualifications to be a Zen teacher, your instructor is just another roundeye raping Asian culture for a buck." - Errant108
            "Seriously, who gives a fuck what you or Errant think? You're Asian males, everyone just ignores you, unless you're in a krotty movie." - new2bjj

            Comment


              #7
              blame friday night smackdown for that one. damn WWE!
              :new_all_c

              Comment


                #8
                Oh, it just occurred to me: There really isn't much reason for the attacker to follow through most of the time, especially on beginners. If you can get the attacker to NOT schlock the stuff up to the point of no return, it'll reduce a lot of wear and tear on the defender.

                Beginners won't believe you when you say "try to stay standing. Relax, no one's trying to hurt you" if they then see attackers pulling high-crotch over-the-head body slams with full carry-through. :eusa_naug
                Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.
                "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

                "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

                My Bullshido fan club threads:
                Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
                Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
                Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
                Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
                Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a pussy or just cruising for some
                I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
                TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
                ATTN TOM KAGAN
                World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
                Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
                I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
                Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Always pair beginers with more experienced people who can hand them their arses until they get it.

                  Originally posted by Stickx
                  It must suck for legit practitioners of tai chi like Cullion to see their art get all watered down into exercise for seniors.
                  Those who esteme qi have no strength. ~ Exposition of Insights into the Thirteen Postures Attrib: Wu Yuxiang founder of Wu style tai chi.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Andrew Green
                    Restrict what type of takedowns beginners can do. They should not be doing suplexes, plain and simple.

                    Give them a variety that work different set ups, a couple shoots, a couple back steps, a controlled one or two from the back. Keep them low impact, and stress the set up, not the throw.

                    Because if they can get a suplex, they can probably also get a lower impact throw off the same setup, and that is all they need to be working on at this point.
                    Safest techniques possible for noobs.

                    I'm not an instructor, but I just have to mouth off anyway.
                    We do it from takedown: osoto otoshi (safe enough for control in a simpler way than osoto gari) to kesa gatame, and over to sidecontrol and ude-garami/kimura.

                    That's one example. Something that can't be completely fucked up because the techniques are inherently safe. Unless someone's a cock and cranks the ude garami at once. So the part about progressive resistance mentioned is important as well.

                    And from what you say Ming Loyalist, that guy just suplexed the other from the get-go without it being part of the drill, he just sounds like an idiot or an asshole. I mean, geeze, are you there to learn or to be a dick to people who are trying to help you?
                    More human than human is our motto.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      aliveness sound like bullshido. You are not dead. just call it resistance. or (shock horror) sparing.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by UltimateGaijin
                        aliveness sound like bullshido. You are not dead. just call it resistance. or (shock horror) sparing.
                        Resistance is only one out of three of the criteria for aliveness. Just trying to crank on a lock while the other guy tries to muscle out, for example, is not an alive drill.

                        Sparring is one alive drill, others include padwork and isolation drills (players are allowed a small set of moves and counters).
                        The sad fact is that some people will get scared away by "alive" training, especially those making the jump from a more sport (point sparring) style.
                        Point sparring is alive. Aliveness is not a sufficient condition for good drills or coaching.

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