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    #46
    Originally posted by PEtrainer
    Walmart consistenly shows that it is better than most retailers inculding Target in the emplyee benefits and pay scales.

    And you don't think accounting gimmicks such as what was mentioned has anything to do with such a showing?
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.
    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a pussy or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.

    Comment


      #47
      Originally posted by garbanzo
      That's two ad homini in one post.

      As charming as the Horatio Alger story might be, the labor theory of value is an outdated Marxist idea. People often do not get what they earn. They often get that for which they bargain.
      - You are correct.

      -These people are about to bargin themselves in to being jobless.

      Comment


        #48
        Originally posted by Tom Kagan
        And you don't think accounting gimmicks such as what was mentioned has anything to do with such a showing?
        No I don't especially when these numbers come from stock anaysis.

        Comment


          #49
          Originally posted by PEtrainer
          - You are correct.

          -These people are about to bargin themselves in to being jobless.

          Everyone should remember the aircraft mechanics union in San Antonio and why there are so many aircraft mechanics working in other fields now. They played Zero-Sum with both the US Government and Boeing, and lost.

          Same goes with the pilots union and a couple of small airlines.

          Just remember, no matter how strong a union you have, if there are no businesses to hire you, it doesn't matter what your collective bargaining agreement says.

          Plus, some union memebrs are returning to work, according to what I am reading this morning.
          "Quiet fool before I am kicking the butt!"
          -My three year old trash talking to me

          "Integrity can't be bought or sold---you either have it or you don't."
          -The Honky Tonk Man

          "If you can't be a shining example, at least be a dire warning."
          -My Father to me one day

          "No surprise. Until Aikido sheds its street-brawling, thuggish image, it'll never be mainstream."
          -Don Gwinn

          Comment


            #50
            Originally posted by PEtrainer
            -Walmart consistenly shows that it is better than most retailers inculding Target in the emplyee benefits and pay scales.

            I'd love to see you prove that, since I read all the time about how costco and target beat walmart hands down.
            You can't make people smarter. You can expose them to information, but your responsibility stops there.

            Comment


              #51
              Originally posted by PEtrainer
              - You are correct.

              -These people are about to bargin themselves in to being jobless.
              I doubt it. I don't think anyone at the MTA or in City government has the stones to fire them and take responsibility for the chaos that would result. The system is not great as it is, and it's taken decades to get it this good after its low point in the 80's. If they try to replace all the workers it will grind to a halt.

              They are, however, on the verge of driving their own union bankrupt.
              Last edited by garbanzo; 12/22/2005 1:30pm, .
              The vast Universe!
              The Way of Aiki to to become
              The light of all mankind
              Opening all the world

              --O Sensei

              :gaygay:

              Comment


                #52
                Originally posted by PEtrainer
                No I don't especially when these numbers come from stock anaysis.

                Does the stock analysis include the fact that those employees covered under such a plan are really being paid for by corporate welfare tax dollars? Does the analysis show the stock options are off-blotter artificially deflating the corporate liability? Does the analysis show the "real" pension fund underfunded artificially pumping up cash flow?

                Stock analysis showed ENRON to be such a good buy.
                Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.
                "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

                "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

                My Bullshido fan club threads:
                Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
                Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
                Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
                Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
                Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a pussy or just cruising for some
                I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
                TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
                ATTN TOM KAGAN
                World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
                Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
                I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
                Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.

                Comment


                  #53
                  http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=12289

                  For years, Target has cultivated an image of itself as the "anti-Wal-Mart," a retailer that refuses to sacrifice workplace standards in the pursuit of higher sales and stock prices. But now, after a decade of meteoric growth at both Target and Wal-Mart, labor groups say the two retailers are no longer very different in the way they treat their workers.
                  Target pays between $6.25 an hour to $8 an hour for entry-level, hourly positions in its Twin Cities stores, according to a recent survey of local Target workers by the UFCW. That's in line with what Wal-Mart pays in this market, though some starting-level Wal-Mart workers can earn $9 to $10 an hour, the UFCW said.

                  Comment


                    #54
                    Originally posted by Tom Kagan
                    Does the stock analysis include the fact that those employees covered under such a plan are really being paid for by corporate welfare tax dollars? Does the analysis show the stock options are off-blotter artificially deflating the corporate liability? Does the analysis show the "real" pension fund underfunded artificially pumping up cash flow?

                    Stock analysis showed ENRON to be such a good buy.
                    So what companies out there exist for the benefits of the employee? None. These people are more than fair to (again) non- skilled workers.

                    From The Slate:

                    Faulting Wal-Mart for America's wage stagnation is also unfair. Retail is an industry not known for developing employee skills. No matter how much it needs workers, Wal-Mart won't offer defined benefit pension plans or health insurance coverage for retirees. And neither will virtually any retailer that relies largely on low-skilled, temporary workers.

                    Comment


                      #55
                      1. Wal mart is horrible to work for. Target is OK to work for. Their entry level pay may seem about the same but Target treats people much better, has better hiring practices (you can expect more competent co-workers, in other words) and works harder to promote from withing then wal-mart. At least from what I've heard from friends that worked at both.

                      2. The idea that a degree entitles you to a living and a rank and file job somewhere like the MTA doesn't is bullshit. The idea that 'some jobs should just be shitty - I went to college, they should go to college' - that's literally ERIC CARTMAN level logic.

                      Work should have value. A bricklayer or trashman or bus driver works - look me in the eye and tell me that an entry level computer programmer "deserves" more money for sitting around typing all day then an entry level stonemason or construction framer or plumber. The reality is these people are told they should make very little for unskilled jobs and they accept it - THAT is the failing of their lack of education; that is where their lack of education lets them down.

                      All work enables other societal benefits. You may think a rich man's maid is an unskilled laborer - but in reality, she enables his work. He employs her because it is cheaper to do those things and free his time for his pursuits. The money he generates via the time he frees by employing her is a contribution to the economy far beyond her taxation.

                      College isn't really some acheivement. It's not really all that hard. A combination of factors - access, money, lifestyle, obligation - can have a great influence on a person's education, and I'm sorry, sitting in a classroom for four extra years learning this or that isn't some cross that entitles you to a better life - it's a reward granted to you by generations before you.

                      Just because someone's job doesn't appeal to you or you wouldn't do it or whatever doesn't mean they should be treated like a disposable component.

                      And all the white collar fucks out there need to start learning the words to "we shall overcome" - because your asses are next. You get that, right? The last decade has shown us, with the situation at say, EA games and the tread of extra-national tech support and programming, that no one is immune to the greed of our neighbors.

                      I do agree with PE, however, that it is our neighbors, in the case of walmart for example, that make these things possible - we all give in and buy the cheap shit at the big store once in a while. I don't automatically think walmart should be punished for thinking of a better way to do something, people just need to understand that when they shop there, they are exporting the stores profits and creating only shitty jobs in their community - in other words, they aren't really being part of W's "culture of ownership"
                      Last edited by JohnnyCache; 12/22/2005 2:01pm, .

                      Comment


                        #56
                        Originally posted by JohnnyCache
                        1. Wal mart is horrible to work for. Target is OK to work for. Their entry level pay may seem about the same but Target treats people much better, has better hiring practices (you can expect more competent co-workers, in other words) and works harder to promote from withing then wal-mart. At least from what I've heard from friends that worked at both. .
                        The above article from an industry watchdog that interview employees does not come to that conclution.

                        2. The idea that a degree entitles you to a living and a rank and file job somewhere like the MTA doesn't is bullshit. The idea that 'some jobs should just be shitty - I went to college, they should go to college' - that's literally ERIC CARTMAN level logic.
                        No one said anything about college, it said skilled, educated. No one said jobs should be shitty, some require less skill than others.

                        Work should have value. A bricklayer or trashman or bus driver works - look me in the eye and tell me that an entry level computer programmer "deserves" more money for sitting around typing all day then an entry level stonemason or construction framer or plumber. The reality is these people are told they should make very little for unskilled jobs and they accept it - THAT is the failing of their lack of education; that is where their lack of education lets them down.
                        All work has value that is decided by the free market. In the past unions fought to protect workers rights. An unfortunate fact of the growt of the unions is now it must work to preserve its own ass.

                        All work enables other societal benefits. You may think a rich man's maid is an unskilled laborer - but in reality, she enables his work. He employs her because it is cheaper to do those things and free his time for his pursuits. The money he generates via the time he frees by employing her is a contribution to the economy far beyond her taxation.
                        This is trickle down or voodo econiomics. I love that theory/reality.

                        College isn't really some acheivement. It's not really all that hard. A combination of factors - access, money, lifestyle, obligation - can have a great influence on a person's education, and I'm sorry, sitting in a classroom for four extra years learning this or that isn't some cross that entitles you to a better life - it's a reward granted to you by generations before you.
                        Again, college was never pointed out to be the ned all be all, but it can provide skill, time to mature, and develop a sense of that you want to do for the rest of your life. You can graduate and be a miserable faliure, the choice is yours.

                        Just because someone's job doesn't appeal to you or you wouldn't do it or whatever doesn't mean they should be treated like a disposable component.
                        The world needs ditch diggers too. And thats not being snide, it's a reality.

                        Comment


                          #57
                          "The only power a worker has is the power to control their work output. If the law says it's illegal to cease working, then that power is removed. So when you say "go back and negotiate", what do they have to negotiate with? The MTA offers X. Union says no, that's not enough. So then you want nothing to happen. The MTS could simply wait the union out."

                          Bullshit, have you ever negotiated anything in your life? I negotiate tons of deals where my client is on the weaker side. Where the MTA has a need for workers, because they cannot work for free and no one is expecting them to no matter how you want it to sound, they will negotiate. There is a reason for the Taylor law and these assholes broke it.


                          "Bullshit. A boss doesn't work if they have no employees. A business doesn't function without the workers. Any organisation crumbles without members. They hold the power. Don't like it? Outsource to 3rd world dictatorships where the workers don't have pesky lil things like "rights" and you can force them to work 17 hours days for pennies."

                          Learn some basic economics, yes labor is important but what is more important AND more skilled, management or labor. A laborer can be replaced a HELL of a lot easier than a manager. Without capital there is no business, without a laborer you just hire another laborer.



                          "I can't believe you just wrote "unlevel towards management". Cry me a fucking river. The entire capitalist system is biased towards those with the money, the "capital" in "capitalistic". "

                          Yes, and that is the basis for our society, unions change that. We still have labor laws that protect against that which as I've said before protect against improper conduct. Here the union actually protects them when the laborer engages in improper conduct it takes a freaking complaint file as long as your arm to fire a union employee. Again, what is more important, capital. You would have the laborer making 90% of profits while the boss takes home 10%, yet when times are bad the labor won't dig into thier own pockets to put up money.

                          "And the majority of societies workers are being fucked. Go read about the working poor. Really sucks not everyone belongs to a union."

                          There would be no business if everyone belonged to a union. How are they bieng fucked? because they don't make a million dollars like they want to and sit and play playstation all day at work or because they are bieng beaten or sexually harassed or improperly treated. ALL of which we have laws against. And I'm only concerned about THIS society, I don't vote or live in france, or china or paraguay.


                          "Inflation does mean that anything less than a 3.5% raise equals a pay cut."

                          No, it means what it means, an employer is not supposed to guarantee that the value of thier dollar is the same, what kind of idiotic statement is that?

                          "And again with the "they have it better than X". So what? You have it better than most, you planning on taking a pay cut anytime soon? Your boss ever say "you make more than willy the janitor, you STFU about your pay and working conditions.""

                          No but as I am my own boss, when the money is not there I HAVE TAKEN MONEY OUT OF MY BANK ACCOUNT TO PAY THE EXPENSES OF THE COMPANY, and there are times I have taken no salary at all when the money isn't there, that is what bieng a boss is. I don't see my employees choosing NOT to get paid. They are not my partners and just as they are not expected to share in the losses, they should not share in the profits.

                          Get some glasses to fix that tunnel vision you have.


                          "Right. Cause we've never had unfair laws in this country. Ask any black man."

                          I was expecting such a stupid comparison. Are you comparing the civil rights movement to breaking the taylor law? That is insane. If blacks had the benefits then that the twu had or the advantages of union labor over non union labor they would have had more priveledges than whites. (If you need me to expand that I will)

                          "Hold the city hostage? Jesus, what are they - the legion of doom? How can I have any kind of discussion with you saying BS like that?"

                          BS is how many busineses have gone under or experienced 60% or higher cuts in business at a time when these small busnesses NEED the revenue, many of these businesses rely on this time of year to survive. I'd be willing to bet because of these sons of bitches more than 30,000 will be out of work when the companies go under. Not every business is an FAO shwartz or coka cola (who probably doesn't see much hurt from this, but the convenient store guy selling it, or the restaurant does).

                          Do you deny that the people these workers are hurting are not the rich but the poor? So basically thier strike hurts OTHER WORKERS! And you say it isn't selfish?


                          "But you know what would be great for pricks that think like you? If they did fire all of them. NYC transit would be fucked for years trying to get 30k people trained, the city and state would be fucked with the ~100k new poor people getting on unemployment and welfare and Medicaid, taxes would skyrocket with the loss of revenue from the good jobs that were wiped out and the losses from trying to find and hire new people, etc etc."

                          Ok if we are going to go along this route I'll answer your speculations with an equally meritorious comment that approaches all the issues just like you did.

                          Replacement? What replacement? An armless monkey can do the job better and will work for bannanas.


                          "But hey, at least the people that made it hard for you do get to work would be punished."

                          Once again with the idiocy, dude are you even literate? do I need to spell it out phonetically? here goes.

                          I-T, Is-N-t Me, It is T-h-E P-EE-P Le Th-AT CAN-T A-ffOrD to TAke C-A-B-S


                          "Good job with the thinking ahead."

                          yep, I'm thiking how they need to be punished or they will cost the city and businesses and millions of other workers more money, what is the estimate now? A billion dollars. Great selfish asshole thinking guys.
                          Hope they do get sanctions against the workers for the strike as well as the union (already have).

                          Comment


                            #58
                            Originally posted by PEtrainer
                            So what companies out there exist for the benefits of the employee? None. These people are more than fair to (again) non- skilled workers.

                            A little collective bargaining can go a long way towards making a company consider the benefit of the worker.

                            I'm not faulting Wal-Mart, specfically. I'm using it as an example.


                            As far as fairness, that's were we part ways. Regardless of skill level involved in the labor of their job, I don't consider it fair for a worker to do their job 40 hours a week, 50 weeks a year and still live in poverty while living in the richest nation in the world.
                            Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.
                            "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

                            "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

                            My Bullshido fan club threads:
                            Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
                            Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
                            Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
                            Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
                            Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a pussy or just cruising for some
                            I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
                            TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
                            ATTN TOM KAGAN
                            World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
                            Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
                            I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
                            Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.

                            Comment


                              #59
                              It is trickle-down economics, just a version of that theory that places more emphasis on recognizing the contributions of others.

                              Trickle-down is the theory that the spending of wealthy people enrichs poor people. I feel the work of poorer people enables the wealth in the first place, so there's no job you should look down your nose at.

                              Free market theory assumes that all parties invovled are sensibly opportunistic - free market theory only holds true in an environment where all those participating are dealing with each other on an economic level of pure supply and demand. It doesn't work in a pure form because certain people are bilkable. IF I can't sell my product because there is no demand for it, that's free market. If there's huge demand for my product, but I can't sell it to those parties for that price because I've been convinced to sell it to an insertive middle party for a fraction of its true value at market, the free market economy has been corrupted somewhat.

                              This holds true in the blue-collar market particularly, since many of the people that hold semi-skilled or vocational positions haven't been trained to bargin effectively for the worth of their work - something intrensic to free market participation - while their bosses have. Much of the middle class in this country was built when labor solidarity reversed that condition.

                              Comment


                                #60
                                Three general questions:

                                1) If you were a TWU member you would :
                                a) support the strike
                                b) oppose the strike

                                2) Would you like to belong to a powerful union that fights for your interests even if it means breaking the law and suffering the consequences?

                                3) In a capitalistic society, workers would be expected to :
                                a) try to organize to obtain the most benefits (pay, pension, conditions, etc.)
                                b) trust their employers to look after their interests

                                4) The TWU are:
                                a) a bunch of pinko commie fags
                                b) good little captialists acting out of self interest
                                c) neither
                                Last edited by garbanzo; 12/22/2005 2:38pm, .
                                The vast Universe!
                                The Way of Aiki to to become
                                The light of all mankind
                                Opening all the world

                                --O Sensei

                                :gaygay:

                                Comment

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