Aikido and Groundfighting

[Mong]

Some of us pegged him from the beginning. Red flags go up when you get evasive over simple questions.

The one article is not bad and contains some basic truths but also the same basic assumptions that marked all his other posts and typical of someone who watches or takes a few Aikido classes and becomes expert (Mark is not alone here). One thing you can say about Mark is his writing has gotten better or at least has less holes - you should see his earlier attempts over at Budoseek.

In the end he was banned from Budoseek by the BJJ guys. He was playing expert with them and they called him on it. He went off the deep end and they said bye bye. The Aikido guys were much more tolerant - I guess we have to be all Aiki and stuff.

[SeiserL]

In any case, maybe next time the Aiki Expo organization better invites Mr. DeLucia.

Contact Stan Pranin at the Aikido Journal with suggestions. He is very open to cross-training. The Expo was a great example of that. Hope to see more of you there next time.

[Te No Kage!]

Thanks for posting Mr. Seiser, after seeing this year's lineup, I am becoming more interested in making it to an Aiki Expo. Now, if it only could be on the East Coast or the Midwest!

BTW, did you get to see any of the BJJ demo's? I wonder how it was received or if anybody got on the ground and tried it out.

[SeiserL]

Thanks for posting Mr. Seiser, after seeing this year's lineup, I am becoming more interested in making it to an Aiki Expo. Now, if it only could be on the East Coast or the Midwest! BTW, did you get to see any of the BJJ demo's? I wonder how it was received or if anybody got on the ground and tried it out.

You never can tell. Perhaps we can get Stan Pranin to alternate coasts.

I personally did not get to the BJJ seminar, but the mat was full. Many of us are into cross training and respect the ground game and know we need more exposure and experience. I am sure we will see more at future Expos.

[aikibudoka]

There is a new book about this subject by Walther von Krenner, a direct student of Aikido founder Morihei Ueshiba. It is called Aikido Ground Fighting, and it is definitely worth the read. The author, besides training with the master, was a Judo champion of Germany before embracing Aikido. The book sums up and supports the important points in this thread. It also provides a system that remains true to the art developed by O-Sensei, Morihei Ueshiba.

[DCS]

And Mr. Krenner was not a Judo champion of Germany, he was a very competent judoka but not elite.

[OwlMatt]

The reason there is no groundfighting in aikido is that aikido wasn't designed to be a complete fighting system. Aikido uses the stylized practice of antiquated, mostly weapon-based techniques to teach lessons in physics, lessons which many martial artists believed they could apply to their other training and which Ueshiba himself believed could be applied to our entire lives.

So this guy is, of course, correct that aikido has a groundfighting deficiency. I'm not sure I agree with his solution, though. I think DCS had it right on the first page: aikidoists who want to be complete martial artists need to crosstrain. If you want groundfighting, go find a BJJ instructor, not a guy with his own new teh deadly version of aikido.

[mike321]

I have briefly touched Aikido (4 weeks of classes through the rec center and a summer of taking hapkido). As with any art I am happy if it can provide effective ability within the scope of the art. No one asks boxing to teach grappling or BJJ to improve its kicks. I was fascinated by Aikido since I saw my firt Seagal movie (sorry to go there but just being honest) and effective training in the techniques I have seen in demos would have been more than enough to ask of any art. Unfortunately, I did not find that but that's a separate discussion.

[Permalost]

As with any art I am happy if it can provide effective ability within the scope of the art. No one asks boxing to teach grappling or BJJ to improve its kicks.

What exactly is the scope of aikido?

[DCS]

What exactly is the scope of aikido?

That is a question.

[mike321]

Based on demos I have seen: it is a stand-up system of defending against strikes and grabs. It uses joint locks to subdue opponents, hurt opponents limbs, or throw opponents to the ground.