Aikido and Groundfighting

[Te No Kage!]

This article was in Aikido Journal of all places......... Probably the best written argument for the inclusion of groundfighting and resistance training into Aikido curriculum I've ever read. I wish I could train with this guy, it would be pretty cool.

"Aikido and Groundfighting" by Mark Tennenhouse

[Poop Loops]

BUT O-SENSEI SAID NO VIOLENCE, AND HE IS OUR GOD, THEREFORE WE CANNOT DO ANYTHING. EVEN TOUCHING EACHOTHER IS MAKING HIM MAD!!!!

Besides, in Aikido, after you throw someone on the ground, their head catches fire and explodes, so there is no need to follow them up.

PL

[DCS]

Good article but...


Is not suspicious, it's a false statement. At less is a wrong generalization. Some throws haven't following holds.

Is also reasonable to run away after a throw, and is also reasonable ging for your weapon after a throw, and also is reasonable to soccer kick after a throw. It's only a matter of circumstances.

Should we not ask ourselves why Aikido fails to include practice in basic ground fighting?

Because basic groundfighting (and basic standup fighting) is PREREQUISITE to Aikido learning. Aikido was developed by and for people with serious fighting skills and with backgrounds in Judo/JJ/Karate. Ueshiba and the first generation-pre IIWW practitioners (Abbe, Mochizuki, Shioda...) had good backgrounds in fighting arts.

[Peter H.]

Your Aikido doesn't involve some ground submissions and escapes?

Ours does, really basic stuff, and I make no claims about being able to hold your own against a trained groundfighter of any skill level, but it's enough to get the hell up and run away in most cases.

I'm still working on getting a BJJ guy to come and do more work with me and my class, because I want it to be better than that.

[Te No Kage!]

DCS:

yes, but..... that's not the case anymore which means we'd have to either

A) include it into the training

or

B) not let anyone train unless they have experience in Judo/BJJ/wrestling/karate etc.

Peter:

well, we do the pins/locks when our opponent is face down, but I wouldn't consider that groundfighting by any stretch, nor the suwari waza for that matter either

[Yrkoon9]

Yes I have done Aikido and Aikijutsu. And the overwhelming consensus among the majority of the practitioners is that thier tanden was so developed that they could not be knocked to the ground. Maybe this wasn't true of the 'old' founders, but I am talking about Aikido today. The people who are attracted to it would shudder at the concept of groundfighting training. It would be...undignified.

No shit.

This guy's article makes a lot of sense, is grounded in reality, and unfortunately will probably get him exiled from the Aiki community.

[Te No Kage!]

well, he's actually teaching a class at the next Aiki Expo, along with Roger Machado BTW, so maybe he'll enlighten a few

* "Roger Machado joins list of participants in Aiki Expo 2005!" by Stanley Pranin

We are pleased to announce the addition of Roger Machado Sensei, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu instructor, to our list of featured instructors at Aiki Expo 2005 to be held May 27-29, 2005 at California State University Dominguez Hills in Los Angeles.

Roger Machado was born in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil in 1965. He attended the Universidade Gama Filho where he majored in Physical Education. Machado relocated to the USA in 1994 and presently operates two schools in Los Angeles offering instruction in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. The Machado family are related to the famous Gracie family--Helio Gracie is Roger Machado's uncle--and are associated with the development and spread of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is noted for its highly-develeoped grappling skills. Among Machado's students at present is Dan Inosanto.

Read the whole entry: http://www.aikidojournal.co m/?id=373

[DCS]

DCS:

yes, but..... that's not the case anymore which means we'd have to either

A) include it into the training

or

B) not let anyone train unless they have experience in Judo/BJJ/wrestling/karate etc.

or

C) Crosstrain. :)

[J.T. Hurley]

or D) realize that what gets formally taught in a beginner's class isn't the complete curriculum, or so says the person who taught me the Kimura, Juji-*Gatame*, and how to do a *real* RNC.

[Te No Kage!]

well I don't know about you, but I'm not exactly in the beginner's curriculum anymore

it's very safe to say that in the main Aikido groups: Aikikai, ASU, Iwama, Yoshinkan, etc. ground fighting techniques are NOT part of the curriculum, ever. If your instructor has taught you some basic Judo, then he just taught you some basic Judo on his own and not Aikido techniques that are held back for nidans.

Having said that, I learned how to do a RNC in an Aikido class ten years ago. Obviously submissions that can be completed standing, like the ude garami and the RNC are easily integrated into Aikido, but that's not exactly what we're talking about here.

Basic groundfighting that needs to be taught to Aikidoka needs to be sweeps, escapes, and positional strategy. You aren't going to learn the guard, mount, upa and shrimp in an Aikido class. And those techniques are way more important than learning a handful of subs. Just like in Aikido, position before submission.

People don't realize how similar Aikido and BJJ are when it comes down to strategy. You take angles, you use leverage, you keep your hands and arms in front of you. Little things that I notice more and more all the time.

[csinca]

In 12 years of aikido training I've seen an overwhelming lack of groundfighting in aikido dojos. I've visited a number of dojos in the So Cal area plus others while out traveling for business and overall there isn't much groundwork being taught. Are there some dojos that are working grappling, sure there are. But then again, who are they training with but other aikidoka.

While it's true that O'Sensei and his first generation students were all mean mofos with alot of other experience. The majority of the people getting into Aikido these days aren't. I've not run across any aikido dojos where prior experience in striking or grappling is a prerequisite.

This might be one of the reasons that I've spent most of the last two years crosstraining in other arts and have just started some formal BJJ training.

chris

[PoleFighter]

I'd love to see two aikido masters grapple in hakamas...

[leavittk]

While I agree aikido could do some to teach ground skills, I do not agree with "few wrist locks, chokes, and arm techniques". They are there. Do iriminage properly and you have lots of options.

I believe there are several reasons why ground fighitng is not in aikido. 1. it is a weapons/sword based art. 2. It focuses on teaching dynamic movement. 3. it is a "DO" and not a "SU" philosophy based art.

I for one, however, value ground skills and cross train. If and when I ever start teaching my "art"will be a mixture of many things with the methodologies of Aikido being the base.

Watching some Russian Sambo videos, I think they capture most closely what I think is a balance.

[The Bad Place]

Some of the replies on Aikidojounral to that article hurt my eyes!

[oldman_withers]

My instructor once told me that one of the biggest differences between Aikido and Hapkido is that the latter always follows a throw or joint lock with a strike or break, where Aikido does not usually incorporate this. That's my 2 cents.