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    Karate *Huh* What is it good for?

    Ok, this thread got me thinking
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...7&page=1&pp=20

    I know karate has produce many good fighters over the years but how much of this is down to them fighting and despite them doing karate?

    If you look at a reverse punch typically the spine stays up right and the weight remains central, not moving over the front foot. This is far from ideal for a powerful punch.

    The blocking, a large part of traditional karate isn't reliable.

    As for the kicking, there have been experienced fighters on here who have been greatfull for advice in how to make their roundkicks more muay thai and less kokyushinken (Sp?).

    So basically what I'm asking is;

    What good are the bits of karate that keep it from being kickboxing?

    And no I dont have much karate experience, I'm asking not trolling.

    Originally posted by Stickx
    It must suck for legit practitioners of tai chi like Cullion to see their art get all watered down into exercise for seniors.
    Those who esteme qi have no strength. ~ Exposition of Insights into the Thirteen Postures Attrib: Wu Yuxiang founder of Wu style tai chi.

    #2
    *shaking my head*.


    Firstly, lets look at the kicks that karate has which appear in its kata. They are as follows.

    Yoko-geri : Side kick
    Mae-geri: Front thrust kick
    Mawashi-geri: Round house kick. This kick ideally should be used so that you strike with the shin.
    Hiza-geri: Knee.

    Do any of those work ? You better believe they do. I use them all the time in kumite and so do others I train with. Especially the mae-geri and mawashi-geri's. Used properly those kicks are devestating and can often do your opponant alot of damage.


    Now lets look at the punches. The ones we use in Kyokushin are as follows:

    Front thrust punch (similar to a boxers jab)
    Reverse punch (similar to a boxers stright righ)
    Hook punch to the body normally the kidney.
    Uppercut punch to the body about solar plexus height.

    Please don't ask me the names in Japanese. I can say them but I cannot spell them. Now those are the four main punches we use. They are present in kata and they work very well in sparring.I have seen people get broken ribs to prove it. Obviosly when sparring we don't chamber our fists under the nipel like we do in basics. We adopt more of a "realistic' fighting stance. You know ? Hand up and elbows in.

    Now as for this business about blocking. Yeah I know the forearm block sucks. But consider this. The upper forearm block can be used as a strike. Your smashing your forearm under the chin of your opponant. That strike would have the same movement as a block.


    The first thing they teach us is 'kata is not how we fight' the exaggerated blocks we use have the same body mechanics as say blocking with your palm - which is a shorter quicker block. But look a little bit of kata is alright. Decent karate schools (like Kyokushin ones) will admit kata does not make one a better fighter. But dammit if anything kata done right is a good workout.

    Karate has evolved to become similar to kickboxing but it does have its differences. I'm tired now so please forgive me if I have not explained myself very well.
    Hannibal: The sworn enemy of dishonest politicians, source of entertainment on Bullshido and newly appointed Office Linebacker. Terry Tait ain't got shit on me !!!!

    Comment


      #3
      Thanks.
      Originally posted by Hannibal
      Front thrust punch (similar to a boxers jab)
      Reverse punch (similar to a boxers stright righ)
      So you do move your weight forward, lean in and turn the body when you punch?
      Last edited by Jekyll; 5/24/2005 4:54am, .

      Originally posted by Stickx
      It must suck for legit practitioners of tai chi like Cullion to see their art get all watered down into exercise for seniors.
      Those who esteme qi have no strength. ~ Exposition of Insights into the Thirteen Postures Attrib: Wu Yuxiang founder of Wu style tai chi.

      Comment


        #4
        can't speak for any other schools, but i've always been taught to put my hips into *everything.*

        i mean, if you just stand there flailing your arms without moving the rest of your body, it turns into kempo.

        Comment


          #5
          Ok, I've been thinking over what I was trying to say.
          A reverse punch is nothing like a cross. The body positioning is different, the hand is chambered, the weighting is different, the shoulder is used differently and the waist is cocked back without a jab being thrown.
          The same is true of many other techniques in karate. They're not the techniques you see in kickboxing, so why are they practiced? Do they have uses in sparring where normal techniques wouldn't work? Are they more powerful or does practicing them make your normal techiques more powerful?

          There's a lot of people on this board who do both and find value in the karate. I really would apreaciate your opinions.

          Originally posted by Stickx
          It must suck for legit practitioners of tai chi like Cullion to see their art get all watered down into exercise for seniors.
          Those who esteme qi have no strength. ~ Exposition of Insights into the Thirteen Postures Attrib: Wu Yuxiang founder of Wu style tai chi.

          Comment


            #6

            Comment


              #7
              They're not the techniques you see in kickboxing, so why are they practiced?
              karate evolves from a fighting history that is aptly described as "not kickboxing." hence... that is not necessarily what the techniques are for.

              it's been said that japanese arts focus on powerful finishing techniques rather than a flurry of faster attacks. a reverse punch, for example, is not exactly the most high percentage punch out there - but if you find an opportunity to use it (which would, in this theory at least, have been much more common in premodern japan), it can be extremely powerful. i think we've all seen footage of this from a few decades back. it may not exactly be the smartest way to attack much of anybody, but as part of a combo...

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Jekyll
                Ok, I've been thinking over what I was trying to say.
                A reverse punch is nothing like a cross. The body positioning is different, the hand is chambered, the weighting is different, the shoulder is used differently and the waist is cocked back without a jab being thrown.
                The same is true of many other techniques in karate. They're not the techniques you see in kickboxing, so why are they practiced? Do they have uses in sparring where normal techniques wouldn't work? Are they more powerful or does practicing them make your normal techiques more powerful?

                There's a lot of people on this board who do both and find value in the karate. I really would apreaciate your opinions.
                When I'm sparring, I don't chamber a reverse punch, like you would typically see in a kata. My hands are up higher, and I try to protect my body more.

                Karate generally teaches techniques using over exaggerated motions as a beginner, then as you progress, you tend to pare the techniques down, using less motion to accomplish the same task. Once your body understands the basics of power generation, hip rotation, etc., etc., you can start to accelerate the process, and the motion becomes more streamlined.

                Free sparring in Karate looks very much like kickboxing (at least to me). It's fast, strikes are thrown and retracted, and there is a lot of movement. Do people use a reverse punch? Sometimes, but as you progress, it gets shorter, faster, and more power gets generated more quickly. As for whether it is equivalent to a cross, I would say probably not, though my kickboxing days are almost two decades behind me, so it's a little foggy.
                Originally posted by pauli
                i was once told that "do" means wrecking people's shit for your own philosophical betterment.

                Originally posted by melvin_peebles
                I could be mistaking dumbness for delusion. I'll have to go dig out my DSM IV. It's great to have stumbled upon this site. The rich fauna and flora of mental dysfunction that exists in the martial arts is amazing. It's like the Galapagos.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Just to let you know I did karate for a little over a year, quit that school for Enshin which I've been doing for about a month. I have taken some (2) Kickboxing classes (Muay Thai).

                  The reason karate has more than 4 punches, is because it is mainly a bareknuckle empty hand style, so to protect your hand you would do open handed strikes to the head. The style of gloves kickboxing uses lends itself to closed fist punches. From what I understand karate is a Self Defense based art, kickboxing(American) is a subset of karate. I personally like the variety of techniques in karate and the structure of the classes, I think they're fun to learn, even though you might only wind up using only a few of them, as opposed to kickboxing where you mainly drill the high percentage techniques. Also in both karate style I've tried, all the punches come from the chin, and we do not chamber the punches.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Hannibal
                    Do any of those work ? You better believe they do. I use them all the time in kumite and so do others I train with. Especially the mae-geri and mawashi-geri's.
                    The two you use most are the two found used in MT. The KK round kick with the shin was apparently adapted from MT by Oyama. Shotokan uses the instep. There certainly seems to be a certain convergence amongst striking styles which are largely accepted as effective.

                    "Now as for this business about blocking. Yeah I know the forearm block sucks. But consider this. The upper forearm block can be used as a strike. Your smashing your forearm under the chin of your opponant. That strike would have the same movement as a block. "
                    I thought that big, 'rigid' blocks (mostly with the forearm) where a feature of Shotokan, and that Goju and Kyokushin derived styles used more evasion and 'soft' blocking techniques ?

                    I've never trained in KK or Goju, it's just the impression I've picked up from reading.

                    The first thing they teach us is 'kata is not how we fight' the exaggerated blocks we use have the same body mechanics as say blocking with your palm - which is a shorter quicker block. But look a little bit of kata is alright. Decent karate schools (like Kyokushin ones) will admit kata does not make one a better fighter. But dammit if anything kata done right is a good workout.
                    I think this makes sense, in that if you're going to do some cardio or muscular endurance training, and you don't have anybody else to work out with, practicing the techniques of your style in a rigorous, predetermined, yet varied way is more beneficial (and is more fun, and thus easier to stick to) than just running, or slaving on a cross-training machine.
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                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Jekyll
                      Ok, this thread got me thinking
                      http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...7&page=1&pp=20

                      I know karate has produce many good fighters over the years but how much of this is down to them fighting and despite them doing karate?

                      If you look at a reverse punch typically the spine stays up right and the weight remains central, not moving over the front foot. This is far from ideal for a powerful punch.

                      The blocking, a large part of traditional karate isn't reliable.

                      As for the kicking, there have been experienced fighters on here who have been greatfull for advice in how to make their roundkicks more muay thai and less kokyushinken (Sp?).

                      So basically what I'm asking is;

                      What good are the bits of karate that keep it from being kickboxing?

                      And no I dont have much karate experience, I'm asking not trolling.
                      First of all my disclaimer is that there is a lot of bullshit karate out there who have shitty training and don't spar enough if at all.

                      Kickboxing and Karate both have their merits. It's all in how you train, you get what you put in for both. If you never fight you will probably not be that great of a fighter.

                      When you mention about having a straight spine, you do realize that the spine has a natural curve to it right? I don't think that hunching over generates more power, also I never thought of good posture as a liability.

                      Blocking is something that has to be practiced in an alive fashion. Like Feryk says, the moves are exagerated when being taught, the wind up is much less in realistic action. for instance, you should be able to block from a position where your hands are up without a big windup.

                      In karate you are supposed to use your body as a weapon, therefore when you strike it is not just your fist, it is your wrist/forearm/arm/shoulder/lats/back/hip/legs, etc. which must be strengthened and involved in the strike. You are only as strong as your weakest link.

                      If you move all of your weight to the front foot for too long it becomes easy for you to be thrown off balance.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Cullion
                        I thought that big, 'rigid' blocks (mostly with the forearm) where a feature of Shotokan, and that Goju and Kyokushin derived styles used more evasion and 'soft' blocking techniques ?

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Cullion
                          Shotokan uses the instep.
                          Classically, Shotokan students are more likely to use the ball of the foot, but then classical Shotokan students don't hit things very often.
                          I personally use the instep or the shin, as do most at my club.

                          There's a real disconnection in Karate between how we train and how we actually use it that I just don't understand.
                          - often in lines, throwing fresh air techniques. This has some value but it dominates the training at many clubs.
                          - Training big, inefficient blocks in immobile stances. Why??? If you watch a half decent karate fighter, theres none of this.

                          I dunno. I still train at my old Shotokan club once a week. It's fun, I've got a bunch of friends there and it gets me a hassle free workout. Thats all I really expect from it nowadays.
                          Oh, and it gave me a decent base when I started Muay Thai.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            People rave on about Muay Thai being the ultimate striking art.

                            What is Muay Thai ? It has punch,kick,elbow,knee

                            Big deal. Kyokushin aswell as other karate styles have punches,kicks,elbows and knees. See its all about the individual martial arts school,how they train and what type of instructor you have. There are shit schools and good schools in every martial art.

                            I've seen some Muay Thai schools which are fantstic and I've seen others where its advertised as Muay Thai yet its run like a cardio-kickboxing class.

                            Just for the record I've met guys from various other karate styles who fight pretty hard. People from Shotokan for instance. Now I've met a couple of SHotokan guys who don't believe in any point sparring crap. For them its hard contact sparring all the way.

                            One of them now trains at my Kyokushin dojo. And let me tell you, this guy can fight and is fanatical on breaking boards and bricks. Turning kicks to the head,thigh, reverse side kicks you name it. He can just about knock any of our black belts out with any kick. There are countless times where I almost had a broken leg thanks to this guy's turning kicks. He's in his 40's and he was trained in an 'old school' karate fashion.

                            My point. Based on what I have seen Kyokushin and other styles of karate WHEN TRAINED CORRECTLY can and do work. I've had my ass kicked so many times not to believe so.
                            Hannibal: The sworn enemy of dishonest politicians, source of entertainment on Bullshido and newly appointed Office Linebacker. Terry Tait ain't got shit on me !!!!

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Karate works just fine for me, thank you.

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