Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Regarding the bong sao

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Regarding the bong sao

    That civilisation may not sink,
    Its great battle lost,
    Quiet the dog, tether the pony
    To a distant post;
    Our master Caesar is in the tent
    Where the maps are spread,
    His eyes fixed upon nothing,
    A hand under his head.


    - W.B. Yeats

    #2
    In kickboxing in the the clinch we used to lift up our arms at times and use the point of the elbow to jam into the fist...

    In my reviews and reading of Mark Hatmaker's material, I have seen something very similar and mentioned it in the writeup.

    When you are dealing with striking on the inside, the defensive parrying against hooks and elbows starts to look similar to what I've see in Wing Chun...

    Comment


      #3
      Better than a sprawl against someone shooting in.

      Comment


        #4
        in hung ga, a bong sau is any rising elbow block (including raising your elbow so that it covers the side of your head.

        in that capacity, it saved my life. i was skateboarding through an intersection and was hit by a car going around 40mph which entered the intersection perpandicular to me.

        right before impact i raised my elbow shielding the side of my head, and because of this it was my elbow and not my head that went through the windshield. i was able to walk away from the accident.

        not exactly a fight or sparring but i found it quite useful
        "Face punches are an essential character building part of a martial art. You don't truly love your children unless you allow them to get punched in the face." - chi-conspiricy
        "When I was a little boy, I had a sailor suit, but it didn't mean I was in the Navy." - Mtripp on the subject of a 5 year old karate black belt
        "Without actual qualifications to be a Zen teacher, your instructor is just another roundeye raping Asian culture for a buck." - Errant108
        "Seriously, who gives a fuck what you or Errant think? You're Asian males, everyone just ignores you, unless you're in a krotty movie." - new2bjj

        Comment


          #5
          I've used it to shovel aside a hook myself (well, it was a thing called a crane deflection which is pretty much the same). Really, though, I think it and similar movements are really there so that you can spring up into a jab or backfist after crossing arms.

          Sometimes you end up with something like it against a low cross or jab

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by eyebeams
            Sometimes you end up with something like it against a low cross or jab
            How? I am genuinely curious, I can see that sort of defense used against hooks because they come from the side, but not against punches that travel along the centerline. This is what my sifu used to talk about, and I never saw a bong sao used against straight line punches.
            That civilisation may not sink,
            Its great battle lost,
            Quiet the dog, tether the pony
            To a distant post;
            Our master Caesar is in the tent
            Where the maps are spread,
            His eyes fixed upon nothing,
            A hand under his head.


            - W.B. Yeats

            Comment


              #7
              Yeah it works like that, but its not how it is supposed to be used really in WC. I use it like how you mentioned as well, but only on hooks, usually just use a biu sao other wise. Depends on my timing really =\

              Bong sao works only when you use foot work with it, side stepping with the block or pivoting. Seeing as you dont want to "block force on force". Standing and just trying to raise and block using it along the WC way wont make it work. Raising it to block with the elbow, works while not moving heh I find it useful as well.

              Usually I transition my other hand to grab the blocked punch and swing in with a back hand to face, attack to ribs, sweep, control of head and use knees what ever I can work out. It's pretty open.
              Last edited by Mr.Miyagi; 3/17/2005 11:12am, .
              Daniel: I don't know if I know enough karate.

              Miyagi: Feeling correct.

              Daniel: You sure know how to make a guy feel confident.

              Miyagi: You trust the quality of what you know, not quantity.

              Comment


                #8
                You can use bong sao without footwork, but it's designed to deal with punches that are crossing your centerline. WCL, tan or fook or pak would make more sense for a punch coming into your centerline.
                "It does not matter who the master is. It does not matter what the face looks like. The masters are of the Qimen school of qigong/meditation which is related to Zen. The master wears white robes, and the predecessor master wears bright gold robes. The qimen school travels the univers and is not restricted to what paradise they live in. It has many masters" -Serious Harm

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by grond
                  You can use bong sao without footwork, but it's designed to deal with punches that are crossing your centerline. WCL, tan or fook or pak would make more sense for a punch coming into your centerline.
                  Yes, I believe my former sifu was actually wrong about the application of that technique. Funny how I am understanding WC more after starting MT.
                  That civilisation may not sink,
                  Its great battle lost,
                  Quiet the dog, tether the pony
                  To a distant post;
                  Our master Caesar is in the tent
                  Where the maps are spread,
                  His eyes fixed upon nothing,
                  A hand under his head.


                  - W.B. Yeats

                  Comment


                    #10
                    It's generally a bad sign when your sifu doesn't know what he's talking about. :(

                    Just out of curiosity, did you do the traditional two-man exercises in your school WCL?
                    "It does not matter who the master is. It does not matter what the face looks like. The masters are of the Qimen school of qigong/meditation which is related to Zen. The master wears white robes, and the predecessor master wears bright gold robes. The qimen school travels the univers and is not restricted to what paradise they live in. It has many masters" -Serious Harm

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by grond
                      It's generally a bad sign when your sifu doesn't know what he's talking about. :(

                      Just out of curiosity, did you do the traditional two-man exercises in your school WCL?
                      That civilisation may not sink,
                      Its great battle lost,
                      Quiet the dog, tether the pony
                      To a distant post;
                      Our master Caesar is in the tent
                      Where the maps are spread,
                      His eyes fixed upon nothing,
                      A hand under his head.


                      - W.B. Yeats

                      Comment


                        #12
                        I found bong sai to be a very interesting move as a method of deflected unexpected strikes when your hands are down. (Some of my friends like to throw surprise attacks on me.)
                        I suppose its not too bad a move if you have to deflect a sudden stick thrust. (there was some wacko I saw two years ago running around in broad daylight in my neighbourhood with a sword in his hand. Thats where I got the ideal if he decided to take a stab at me. I didnt expect to see some guy running around with a sword!)
                        Ghost of Charles Dickens

                        Comment


                          #13
                          In my Hung Gar school, we practice the bong sai as both a block and a strike. We initially learn it as a block, then are taught to strike with it, and then use it as an override to both block and strike.

                          For striking, you shift your footwork and use the torque of your hips and arm to snap your palm into a low target such as the groin, dan tien, or stomach. Once you get the hang of it, it's a pretty wicked shot.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Bong sao can be used with gloves on in a kickboxing situation, but it is far less versital and effective in that context. Here youre better off improving other skills so you don't get caught much where you need may use it and i wouldnt get into a habit of trying to employ it or using it to check punches. In the right situation it can work though. I do react and do it sometimes if i'm extented and havent yet retracted a punch to beat a counter punch, so just pop the elbow up and corkscrew the arm for a split second and transition. Its nearly impossible to effectively stick and not to your advantage in that context anyway at that point, so i usually just deflect and cover and counter with bong sao. It can also be used as the beginning of corkscrewing punch which can catch people off guard. But it can also be a liability and keep you extended and open too long, and might allow for a arm grab and bar, especially since youre slower and less sensitive with gloves on, so i try to keep it to a last resort reaction, somebody good may capitalize on it. The very shape and position that creates the bong sao structure is close to a potential lock, although it would be hard to lock a good wing chun guy from there as its just a split second transition. But when youre slowed down extra with gloves you have to be aware of that although you can still drop the elbow quickly, the hand just rotates. I find the place where the movements from wing chun can be most helpful is actually inside while standing in a clinch jockeying for position to best execute or counter a throw or takedown.

                            Bare hands in a crowded space as part of a quick scrap is where i think wing chun does have viability. Anyone who thinks its even close to a complete system though is delusional. The fact that the people usually attracted to it are typically pussies who rarely bring it much beyond pattie-cake sure doesnt help its case much, and most wing chun taught is a compete fucking joke to begin with.

                            As far as stance goes, it is very preferable to rotate / shift stance doing bong sao, and i sure wouldnt want to stand there and rely on it to stop a good boxers punch, which will be part of a combination anyway. And when you can't use pressure and stick in that situation you'd better have some other training besides wing chun chi sao or you will get KTFO real fast.
                            Last edited by Arbiter; 3/17/2005 1:32pm, .

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by WingChun Lawyer
                              How? I am genuinely curious, I can see that sort of defense used against hooks because they come from the side, but not against punches that travel along the centerline. This is what my sifu used to talk about, and I never saw a bong sao used against straight line punches.
                              Looking at my WC references, it's more like the low BS in Chum Kil: basically, with the land position of a low outside deflection but moving toward the centre of your body instead of clearing away from it. I can't see it working well square to the opponent.

                              Comment

                              Collapse

                              Edit this module to specify a template to display.

                              Working...
                              X