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What is t3h sp4rr1n9?

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    What is t3h sp4rr1n9?

    :dontknow:

    There have been threads like this in the past, but hopefully this can offer something new and insightful.

    So what is sparring?

    When does it cross the line between sparring and a drill?

    Hypothetical question:

    One guy on bottom with gaurd. One guy on top with boxing gloves.

    Guy on bottom tries to sweep or sub. Guy on top tries to land bombs.

    A sweep or a sub, start over, guy on bottom starts to get overwhelmed, start over.

    Is this sparring or drilling? Why?

    How is is more or less restrictive than say an all stand up 'sparring' or grappling only 'sparring' session?
    205
    Must have lava and/or glass
    3.41%
    7
    Must have coach and or supervision (even if coach is one of the people sparring)
    10.73%
    22
    Must have nonnegligible chance of injury
    4.88%
    10
    Must have clearly defined goals for 'winning'
    9.27%
    19
    Must have clearly defined fouls and restrictions
    10.73%
    22
    Must have a fully resisting opponent with same goals
    31.71%
    65
    Must involve heavy drinking (before or after)
    4.88%
    10
    Must have full on hardcore contact
    1.95%
    4
    Must have medium to heavy contact
    21.46%
    44
    Must not exceed contact level of foreplay (ok, this is interpretive)
    0.98%
    2
    If a `religion' is defined to be a system of ideas that contains unprovable statements, then Godel taught us that mathematics is not only a religion, it is the only religion that can prove itself to be one. -- John Barrow

    Talk to TBK's boyfriend:


    #2
    I would consider that to be a "live action drill."

    It's a drill because of the contrived circumstances and different objectives of the participants; as well as the non-neutral starting point. It is a very good drill however, especially because it is live.

    "Sparring" implies both participants are attempting to achieve the same goal (victory) at the same time from neutral start.
    Last edited by Scrapper; 3/16/2005 2:30pm, . Reason: "it's like I typed it with mittens on!"
    And lo, Kano looked down upon the field and saw the multitudes. Amongst them were the disciples of Uesheba who were greatly vexed at his sayings. And Kano spake: "Do not be concerned with the mote in thy neighbor's eye, when verily thou hast a massive stick in thine ass".

    --Scrolls of Bujutsu: Chapter 5 vs 10-14.

    Comment


      #3
      I concur with Scrapper's take on the issue. Sparring is focused on the full application of all acquired knowledge and skill. Live-action drills are generally more purposeful in terms of a more definite objective. If that objective is completed, the drill's over. Sparring's generally over when someone can't keep sparring or when time's up.

      Comment


        #4
        I say would the that sparring is to drilling as the Final exam is to the end of chapter test.
        I think that idea of sparring is to replicate fighting, so while you are most likley trying to work specific techniques and tactics you are doing it in a dynamic enviroment. While drilling you are also trying to work a particular technique, but you are doing so as response to a single or a set of techniques.

        Drilling: I'm trying to work on the parry/pick. My partner jabs my in the face. I pick it off, I don't get hit, I do it wrong I get hit. It's alive but still a drill

        Sparring: My partner is trying to beat my with everything he has in his arsenal, but when he throws those jabs I'm trying to pick them off.

        That's just what I think.
        Last edited by ojgsxr6; 3/16/2005 2:44pm, . Reason: Spelling, grammar

        Comment


          #5
          Hypothetical: Drilling. You know the division and can probably articulate it better than I.

          Aside: Some bjj luminary has commmented that rolling is overemphasized in comparision to this sort of realistic drilling. That comment makes me look in the mirror and not like what I see.

          Comment


            #6
            Drills are what we use to learn and perfect our techniques/principles, they can be static or dynamic ( controlled or "alive" ), sparring is what we use to TEST thoise same techniques and principles against someone who is trying to BEAT our ass.
            Sparring can be light, semi and hard contact, if it is FULL it is more like competition than sparring per se.

            The term sparring shoudl only be used for what is commanly called jiyu-kumite, or free sparring.
            One step, two step and such, are drills rather than sparring.

            Comment


              #7
              Threads merged.

              Comment


                #8
                If the hypothetical is drilling, is this type of drill more or less productive than some sparring?

                And why isn't it sparring? All you are doing is isolating aspects of 'the game' and then playing them over and over.

                Isn't that in someway the same as only doing stand up or grappling?
                If a `religion' is defined to be a system of ideas that contains unprovable statements, then Godel taught us that mathematics is not only a religion, it is the only religion that can prove itself to be one. -- John Barrow

                Talk to TBK's boyfriend:

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Little Idea
                  If the hypothetical is drilling, is this type of drill more or less productive than some sparring?

                  And why isn't it sparring? All you are doing is isolating aspects of 'the game' and then playing them over and over.

                  Isn't that in someway the same as only doing stand up or grappling?

                  WTF are you talking about?

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I thought the language was plain and clear, but I'm not sure I can translate it to Canadian. Humor me

                    The real heart of the issue, what is the best way to maximize your training time?
                    Or is sparring under your definition even necessary?

                    In the context of the previous posts and my opinion:

                    'Sparring' without a coach or at least outside feedback is suboptimal, and in some instances a complete waste of time.

                    It might be fun, but it is diminishing returns after you figure out that you like hitting people and don't like getting hit.

                    Even if you are 'winning', it doesn't mean you are good or even getting better. Sure you hit the guy here, but you should have got him here and here and you were off balance and open here and here.

                    'Sparring' with light contact or excessive protective gear is another complete waste of time IMHO. All you do is reinforce unrealistic expectations of what is really happening.

                    I also don't agree that all parties have must have the same goals, outside of 'winning'. If we just look at the context of an MMA sparring session between two backgrounds, one person maybe trying to keep things up and throw blows and the other person wants things on the ground working for subs.

                    So to isolate an aspect of 'the game', both of those players will benefit from a drill/sparring session where one persons goal is to keep it up and throw while the other works for takedowns.

                    Personally, I'll give you 10:1 putting a guy who only trains hardcore anything goes sparring against a guy who has done all types of these 'alive' isolation drills with heavy contact and knowledgeable external feedback but never 'spars'.
                    If a `religion' is defined to be a system of ideas that contains unprovable statements, then Godel taught us that mathematics is not only a religion, it is the only religion that can prove itself to be one. -- John Barrow

                    Talk to TBK's boyfriend:

                    Comment


                      #11
                      There needs to be a risk involved. If you aren't risking anything by doing it, then it's not helping you. Someone to supervise you would be a great help. When I'm rolling with someone, and can't get a a move to work, I NEVER eventually figure it out on my own. I always need a 3rd party to tell me what I'm doing wrong, and then I'll remember that.

                      PL

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Canuckyokushin:

                        These women can do back flips right over my head and still land on there feet .GRrrrrrrr!

                        feedback:

                        THAT'S NOTHING, I USED TO KNOW SOME 12 YEAR-OLDS WHO COULD FIT INSIDE A SUITCASE AND STAY ALIVE FOR 7 OR WAS IT 6 HOURS

                        Comment


                          #13
                          'Must have nonnegligible chance of injury' uh, I couldn't vote here cause I have no idea (not even a little idea) what that means.

                          sometimes we spar, afterwords clasp our hands laugh and say, "good, no blood!"

                          sometimes we spar and then say," I'm sorry."

                          sometimes we spar and afterwords we say, "no problem, just a hole in my mouth," or "hell, no problem, it's been broken before and I WAS charging," or simply, "no problem, that's all you have to say."

                          sometimes we spar and afterwords we talk about what we could have done....

                          sometimes we spar and afterwords we sigh and feel embarrassed

                          sometimes we spar and afterwords we don't look at each other and never speak again.
                          "Preparing mentally, the most important thing is, if you aren't doing it for the love of it, then don't do it." - Benny Urquidez

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Little Idea
                            :dontknow:

                            There have been threads like this in the past, but hopefully this can offer something new and insightful.

                            So what is sparring?

                            When does it cross the line between sparring and a drill?

                            Hypothetical question:

                            One guy on bottom with gaurd. One guy on top with boxing gloves.

                            Guy on bottom tries to sweep or sub. Guy on top tries to land bombs.

                            A sweep or a sub, start over, guy on bottom starts to get overwhelmed, start over.

                            Is this sparring or drilling? Why?

                            How is is more or less restrictive than say an all stand up 'sparring' or grappling only 'sparring' session?
                            Okay, to make things simple, you're trying to differentiate between a sparring drill (or alive drill) vs straight out sparring.

                            Sparring is light to moderate to heavy contact wherein one uses any of their natural weapons to defeat their "opponent" or to defend against their "opponent". The goal is to gain proficiency and "flightime" using their chosen style's techniques. There is typically open rules, and everything is about application in motion against a resisting opponent.

                            A sparring drill to me, is exactly as you have described. The sparring is basically limited to one or two skillsets (the guy on top practicing punching, guy on bottom using mma/grappling to defend) Its still sparring, but with limitations. The goal being to improve one's ability to use that skillset only against certain attacks. Another example would be two guys squaring off, one only being able to punch/kick and the other only throwing or grappling. You probably get the idea.

                            It is a little idea after all.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Good sparring isn't just harsh, what good sparring is is painful.
                              You hit the guy hard enough to know hes been hit, but you don't hit him to cut him or knock him out, its supposed to be beneficial for both parties scrapping.
                              so medium to full contact.
                              And have someone reffing to make sure no one gets killed.

                              Comment

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