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Western Muslim identity and alienation post-911

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    Western Muslim identity and alienation post-911

    A good article for those interested:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programme...ld/4347061.stm

    Notable Excerpts for myself:

    There is a stirring in Muslim communities. A new breed of activists driven by anger and injustice against Muslims, both at home and abroad, is on the move.
    In the aftermath of the terror attacks, Muslims retreated from local and state politics to an astonishing degree: more than 90% of Muslim politicians were no longer in office by 2002.
    "The more mainstream America hears the moderate voices, the less suspicious they'll be," he says.
    Especially true if one looks at many Muslims in Europe and recent events such as the Van Gogh killing + the general increase in Muslim males born in westerm nations moving to militant Islam due an increasing sense of alienation, partially bought about by general society in their country and partially bought about by their own self-enclosed community (something I am against).

    Questions? Observations? Comments? Opinions?

    P.S. If you hate Muslims, please start another thread, I just want opinions on this particular subject, thanks.

    #2
    From what I notice here in NY, I really dont notice a self-enclosed Muslim society. In my line of work I come in contact with many Muslims/Arab Christians and Jews. Many are extremely successful. From my point of view they are honest hard-working people.

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      #3
      The problem in Europe is that most of the immigrants here were never forced to integrate and were left to fall by the wayside. This strategy is plain dumb at best. Only rarely (Denmark for example) are immigrants forced to learn the language and made to start contributing to the society they live in.

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        #4
        Mcfu - I agree with what you said about Europe. France is a good example with the entire North African issue from the 60's (was it?).

        Deadchef - I hear what you mean... however what you are seeing in NYC are probably the more progressive and moderate (if you may) Muslims and there are enough of us (!), we are the majority. However, I have seen some of the self-enclosed communities that are present and the alienation that many young Muslim males of Western descent (nationally) feel. This is something that worries me as I do not want to see more of the silent majority go to the fringe.

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          #5
          Disco, I don't know so much about France, but Germany is a good example with its high Turkish population. The government invited them to work here in order to help rebuild after WWII, but never thought that they might want to stay, have families, work, retire and do the other things normal people do. Because of this, they were an underclass from the start AND it just so happens they were Muslim.

          Islam has its own problems - there are no democracies in the Muslim world (okay Iraq, haha) and I am not sure why.

          My favourite example is India and Pakistan. Both people are exactly the same accept for religon, but the countries are vastly different as well.

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            #6
            Originally posted by MrMcFu
            My favourite example is India and Pakistan. Both people are exactly the same accept for religon, but the countries are vastly different as well.
            Exactly the same? I'm not sure either the Indians or Paki's would agree with that.

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              #7
              India and Pakistan are prime examples of the British screwing up, IMO. However, I do think that Jinnah was right in the two nation theory... even if it led to a bloody seperation and a lot of bad blood after. I hope that the current spirit of friendship between the two nations continues.

              As for the issue of democracies in the Muslim world... there are Indonesia and Turkey, Pakistan is back to (western backed, although sadly he is the best choice, currently, IMO) military rule.

              The Arab world has never recovered from colonisation and the slew of neo-colonial dictators have not helped much either.

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                #8
                Originally posted by DiscoZ
                India and Pakistan are prime examples of the British screwing up, IMO. However, I do think that Jinnah was right in the two nation theory... even if it led to a bloody seperation and a lot of bad blood after. I hope that the current spirit of friendship between the two nations continues.
                Theres a theory that the British deliberately implemented Partition as a means of keeping both sides so busy with each other, the British could get out relatively cleanly.
                Obviously it failed miserably, with Northern Ireland haunting us for 90 years or so, and whoever thought of having Pakistan and Bangladesh as the same country was a fricken genius, never mind the whole Kashmir thing.
                Taking responsibility for my actions since 1989

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                  #9
                  Well, the Indians wanted the British out... however the time they chose and the means (Lord Radcliff, locked in a room with a map --someone who had never been to the Subcontinent before) would make part of that theory plausible. Kashmir was just another whole new contentious issue with the Muslim majority population (two nation theory right?) and the Pundit minority + ruler; looking at things in retrospect often makes for some interesting inductive reasoning. Let's not forget Israel vs. Palestine either.

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                    #10
                    Originally posted by MrMcFu
                    The problem in Europe is that most of the immigrants here were never forced to integrate and were left to fall by the wayside. This strategy is plain dumb at best. Only rarely (Denmark for example) are immigrants forced to learn the language and made to start contributing to the society they live in.
                    I had to pick on this since I live in Denmark.
                    Denmark has some of the toughest immigration laws in Europe. Some laws such as the 24-year rule (something along the lines of, if you are not a native citisen you can not marry a danish citizen unless you are over 24, it's supposed to prevent forced marrieges). also immigrants can be expulsed out of Denmark if they commit a felony (this happened recently to 2 teenagers who stabbed a Spanish teen to death)
                    This is mainly the doing of Dansk Folkeparti (The Danish Peoples party), who you could calssify as a populist (in the classic sense) party that caters to the elderly majority in this country.
                    sure some of the laws are ok but most of them help to alienate the immigrants and those seeking political asylum. Sometimes even wrongfully ejecting them, to the wrong country!

                    also some extensive work has been done as to prevent the conception of ghettos by not moving all asylum and immigrants recipient to the same area. which I think is kinda ok.

                    I'll have to read up a little more on Danish immigration laws.
                    Hatred is gained as much by good works as by evil. - Machiavelli

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I have met many Muslims, and never once did they seem alienated by or fearful of Western culture. Based on my personal experience those quotes sound like post 9/11 alarmism.
                      Lone Wolf McQuade Final Fight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmrDe_mYUXg

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                        #12
                        Originally posted by punchingdummy
                        Exactly the same? I'm not sure either the Indians or Paki's would agree with that.
                        The ones in my family would. And Paki is a degrogatory word in case you are ever in the UK (I just found that out)
                        Last edited by MrMcFu; 3/15/2005 12:14pm, .

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                          #13
                          ... I am of South Asian descent and while parts of the culture are shared, there are two distinct identities, IMO. The people are pretty much the same in the sense that they were loosly one nation before. There are many, many ethnicities just withing the subcontinent.

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                            #14
                            Originally posted by DiscoZ
                            ... I am of South Asian descent and while parts of the culture are shared, there are two distinct identities, IMO. The people are pretty much the same in the sense that they were loosly one nation before. There are many, many ethnicities just withing the subcontinent.
                            The differences between the two are mainly centered around religous practices ie (hindu versus muslim). The seperation was the largest migration of human beings ever.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Wounded Ronin
                              I have met many Muslims, and never once did they seem alienated by or fearful of Western culture. Based on my personal experience those quotes sound like post 9/11 alarmism.
                              There is a degree of post-911 alarmism, however many Muslim families, esp. those freshly immigrated, are a little wary of western culture interfering with their own morals and values. While I do think that integration is something that should be stressed, one's ethnic background should always be remembered.

                              There has been a lot of alienation and resentment from the Muslim community, esp. those whose lives have been thrown into turmoil due to their being singled out for examination by Govt. agencies and their friends/co-workers.

                              Thankfully, I have never had such issues.

                              Comment

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