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Bruce Lee and Wing Chun-My 2 Cents

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    Bruce Lee and Wing Chun-My 2 Cents

    So I've read several posts/threads on a few different sites discussing the merits and shortcomings of Wing Chun and it always seems to come back to Bruce Lee.

    It seems that I've heard someone say, on a number of occasions, something to the effect of: "Wing Chun may be good, but Bruce Lee said it doesn't contain all the answers."

    And a variation of the above notion from those who think little of Wing Chun: "Wing Chun is a comparitively ineffective style...that's why Bruce Lee supplemented it with boxing, high kicks, etc., and eventually created Jeet Kune Do..Wing Chun has too many shortcomings"

    So for the record: Bruce Lee never learned the whole system.

    For those not in the know: Wing Chun contains 3 hand-to-hand forms that function as a 'combat alphabet' of sorts. There's the Siu Lim Tao (some Say Siu Nim Tao), Chum Kiu, and Biu Jee (some say Bil Jee). There's also the wooden dummy form, and the pole and knife forms. Each contains distinct principles that, taken together, form a complete and comprehensive fighting system.

    Bruce Lee only learned Siu Lim Lim Tao, Chum Kiu, and some of the wooden dummy form. Then he moved to Seattle. Where his teacher wasn't. Of course he had to add new stuff to his Wing Chun...he hadn't learned all of it! There were hardly any Wing Chun instructors in Seattle in the early sixties.

    As far as Wing Chun "not providing all the answers"...no, I suppose it doesn't, even if one knows the whole system. But you know what...the very idea that any style could possibly provide "all the answers" is absurd. No style provides "ALL THE ANSWERS"...if it did, well that would make the practitioner INVINCIBLE wouldn't it?

    What Wing Chun, and some other arts DO provide, however, is all the tools necessary to acquire the anwers. In other words: Wing Chun is a complete system containing both the principles and techniques to counter any attack. (Yes, Wing Chun can counter against high kicks and grappling, even if execution of those methods aren't expressely stressed in the style, the capacity for for countering them is inherent within the principles expressed in the system)

    It's up to the practioner to take those tools, in the form of principles and techniques, and make their own answers!

    Bruce Lee's Wing Chun toolbox was incomplete, so for him, or anyone else to espouse this idea that Wing Chun is somehow underdeveloped or inequipped to handle certain situations is simply ignorant, or at the risk of sounding impolite, it's talkin' out your ass, and you don't know what your talking about!

    Um...yeah...so that's all I got for now. I just got tired of hearing people say stuff like "Bruce Lee said Wing Chun wasn't quite good enough", when Bruce Lee didn't know Wing Chun! He knew some of it, but NOT all of it.
    Last edited by El_Nastro; 3/09/2005 9:15pm, .

    #2
    From what I've seen (never experienced it, I have to admit) WC looks kinda crappy.

    Comment


      #3
      Yeah, it doesn't LOOK very flash. Do you really think that matters?

      And if I misunderstand what you're saying, please explain....

      Comment


        #4
        He doesn't mean flashy. He means that what WC teaches doesn't look useful in a fight.

        PL

        Comment


          #5
          I guess we could play the "Yes it is"..."No it isn't" game...

          To me, pretty much everthing except boxing, wresting/jujitsu/grappling, wing chung and maybe kenpo look utterly useless. Wing Chuns good stuff, but its like most things...you get what you put into it.

          Comment


            #6
            It looks like it might be fun as a recreational thing to do. But when you see WC in action (I've seen uhh... *thinking*... about 2-3 videos of WC) it tends to turn into a brawl ala boxing/kickboxing and/or (shudder) point sparring.

            Just MO of course, but physically competitive sports like boxing, kickboxing, bjj, wrestling, and even ITF TKD (I guess, no school of it around here) require you to get in pretty effin' good shape so you can take punishment as well as dish it out. I only have experience in Boxing/Goju Ryu and I have to say I am far and away more inspired to work out on my free time with Boxing than I ever was with Goju Ryu.

            Goju Ryu - Plenty of elaborate movements, little sparring, no real reason to get in shape other than to keep my damn shiko-dachi (horse stance) from hurting as much when we had to hold it for 5 minutes, for whatever reason.

            Boxing - Got a decent liver shot in the first two months from one of the light heavyweight boxers that had joined up a little bit after me. Ever since that painful moment I simply have to recall how much that hurt to inspire me to do my crunches/pushups after class.

            Again this is just my experience, I've yet to meet a WC'er so maybe it'll change later on, I'm just seriously doubtful from what I've seen so far.

            Comment


              #7
              I have nothing but respect for boxing. 9 times out of 10 if you put a boxer up against any sort of gi-wearing black-belt type of person the boxer is going to smear them. I could be wrong, but I think its for one simple reason: SPARRING. Most traditonal martial arts do no real sparring whatsoever, whereas thats what boxers DO. You could have the most masterfully designed SYSTEM ever, but if you don't SPAR honestly and realistically it won't work.

              Sadly, too many Wing Chun schools dont emphasize free sparring as part of the training routine. For that matter , neither do most traditional martial arts schools. If you're lucky enough to find a Wing Chun instructor with any sort of honest and real martial attitude, the system is great.

              Comment


                #8
                I see you have brought a fresh can of worms with you...there is a good chance that you are going to be flamed into oblivion. With that said and done:

                I am I not one of the many members here who think Wing Chun is completely useless. In fact only about an hour ago I was practicing some eyes closed chi sao to help develop sensativity. Thereafter I worked on some posistional clinch work and some sprawl drills though. There is an example of a Wing Chun idea/drill being applied to help with something realistic. The idea of hanging weight applied nicely.

                On the other hand this Bruce Lee "didn't learn the whole system" thing doesn't fly right here. I'll even give you the benefit of the doubt and say that from what I've heard, most CMAs take more time to master. But come on...Wing Chun has it's place (trapping) and should be kept there. Wing Chun has a means to all the answers? Buddy, Wing Chun doesn't even seem to have all the answers to stand up, let alone any answer to the ground unless you count the dreaded "ground slap" as ground work.

                No, I am not a Wing Chun expert nor have I ever taken formal Wing Chun. I have however had enough exposure to it to know that it has many holes in it. I'll agree that there really isn't a complete system (although there are some that have come close), but I'll also say that if there were a complete system that it would not make the fighter invincable. Remember that indvidual skill, cross training, training method and conditioning can make all the difference.

                In summary: Wing Chun, nice tool...it has its place. Far from a complete system.

                PS: Enjoy the verbal raping, other members won't be so kind.
                Last edited by Gypsy Jazz; 3/09/2005 9:47pm, .

                Comment


                  #9
                  "Wing Chun is a disease that destroys rational thought."
                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGXiN-_BCts

                  Numa ^ 3

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by AkiraMusashi
                    "Wing Chun is a disease that destroys rational thought."
                    W3rd.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Gypsy Jazz
                      No, I am not a Wing Chun expert nor have I ever taken formal Wing Chun. I have however had enough exposure to it to know that it has many holes in it.
                      THAT'S exactly what I mean. Not to be rude, but you don't know what you're talking about. If you know next to nothing about a subject, how can you be qualified to make an educated assesment?

                      Maybe an individual PRACTITIONER has weaknesses (what you call holes), but it really is a well rounded system.

                      Here's another thought...let's say you go up against a boxer (or any other art/style). You fare well against said boxer, and he performs poorly. Are you going to say "I've had enough exposure to boxing to know it has holes in it.", or would you say something like

                      "Man, that guy needs some sort of stamina training"...or "That guy was tripping over his own feet. Go back to the gym, work on your footwork."
                      Last edited by El_Nastro; 3/09/2005 10:42pm, .

                      Comment


                        #12
                        El Nastro, how can you explain Wing Chun's nonexistant showing in MMA / NHB matches?

                        And don't forget, wing chun is a system based on principles, not techniques. Therefore wing chun will not be limited by competitions which disallow certain techniques, because the principles will allow you to find another solution.
                        Imports from Japan, Shipping Worldwide! Art Junkie, Scramble, BJJ Spirits, Reversal...
                        Scramble Stuff

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by supercrap
                          El Nastro, how can you explain Wing Chun's nonexistant showing in MMA / NHB matches?

                          And don't forget, wing chun is a system based on principles, not techniques. Therefore wing chun will not be limited by competitions which disallow certain techniques, because the principles will allow you to find another solution.

                          That I don't know too much about. I've only seen a few UFC matches, and that was when they first came out, so I really cant explain it. See...if I don't know about a subject I'm not going to talk out my ass like I'm some kind of expert.

                          I will say this though... If memory serves there was one WC guy in UFC 1. And he lost. Big deal. The bottom line is that guy shouldve trained harder with what he knew. Lots of people lost. They should have trained harder.

                          I bet YOU wouldn't have lasted five seconds against those monsters, (neither would I) including the WC guy who lost. My guess is he'd have your for a light snack. moreover I bet that out of ALL your martial art buddies you MIGHT know one or two people that could compete at that level, but more than likely you dont know personally know ANYONE that wouldn't get his ass handed to him in the UFC. Does that invalidate everything that you and your colleagues know? A PUNCH IS A PUNCH.

                          I was in wing chun at the time UFC 1 came out, and I most definitely believe in giving credit where it is due. The Gracies threw everybody for a loop. Does anyone remember how Royce Gracie blew the collective martial-art mind by winning against EVERYBODY with grappling? I don't think anyone except those already sold on grappling saw that coming. It was amazing, and I will admit that after that we all made it a point to train more on groundfighting.

                          (And by the way, no, I'm NOT going to do that lame-ass "It's just a competition, and WC only works on the STREET man!")
                          Last edited by El_Nastro; 3/10/2005 12:27am, .

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by El_Nastro
                            That I don't know too much about. I've only seen a few UFC matches, and that was when they first came out, so I really cant explain it. See...if I don't know about a subject I'm not going to talk out my ass like I'm some kind of expert.

                            I will say this though... If memory serves there was one WC guy in UFC 1. And he lost. Big deal. The bottom line is that guy shouldve trained harder with what he knew. Lots of people lost. They should have trained harder.

                            I bet YOU wouldn't have lasted five seconds against those monsters, (neither would I) including the WC guy who lost. My guess is he'd have your for a light snack. moreover I bet that out of ALL your martial art buddies you MIGHT know one or two people that could compete at that level, but more than likely you dont know personally know ANYONE that wouldn't get his ass handed to him in the UFC. Does that invalidate everything that you and your colleagues know? A PUNCH IS A PUNCH.

                            I was in wing chun at the time UFC 1 came out, and I most definitely believe in giving credit where it is due. The Gracies threw everybody for a loop. Does anyone remember how Royce Gracie blew the collective martial-art mind by winning against EVERYBODY with grappling? I don't think anyone except those already sold on grappling saw that coming. It was amazing, and I will admit that after that we all made it a point to train more on groundfighting.

                            (And by the way, no, I'm NOT going to do that lame-ass "It's just a competition, and WC only works on the STREET man!")

                            Here's an idea, use the search function, this shit's been discussed ad nauseum eight million fucking times. Noone gives a flying fuck about your two cents. Next goddamned topic please.
                            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGXiN-_BCts

                            Numa ^ 3

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by AkiraMusashi
                              Here's an idea, use the search function, this shit's been discussed ad nauseum eight million fucking times. Noone gives a flying fuck about your two cents. Next goddamned topic please.
                              Well fuck you very much!

                              Apparently you must have given some sort of fuck, because you read the post!

                              So that contradiction makes you one of two things...an idiot or a liar. Which is it?

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