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Sub Grappling, Judo, Sambo question. NOT BJJ.

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    Sub Grappling, Judo, Sambo question. NOT BJJ.

    For some reason omoplatas are pretty much absent from my school. This makes me think my bjj school is a little atypical since many of them seem to stress flowing between subs like triangle-->armbar-->omaplata. For whatever reason omaplata's from any setup or direction just aren't favored.

    How common is the omaplata outside of bjj? Is it stressed at good sub. grappling schools too?

    Just curious.

    #2
    Greg Jackson teaches it in ABQ, but it's not a very high-percentage move. It's pretty rare to see it work in no-gi competitions, IMO, especially if a guy is still fresh. So I would consider it a 'no-gi' grappling move, just not the most effective one out there. . .
    "I had once talked to Billy Conn, the boxer, about professionals versus amateurs - specifically street fighters. One had always heard rumors of champions being taken out by back-alley fighters. Conn was scornful. "Aw, it's like hitting a girl," he said. "They're nothing."


    - George Plimpton
    "Shadow Box"

    Comment


      #3
      I expect someone will come in with the Indian vale tudo photo and say "OIMG THE OMPLATA IS OLD" and someone else will post the Japanese name for judo's "rice cart wheel lock".

      But talking around, it seem the omoplata isn't very well known outside of BJJ, and not even widely popular within BJJ. I know Te No Kage! didn't learn it until a BJJ black belt did a seminar at his judo school. Colin had never heard of it until I sent him to a BJJ.org technique page on it. I suspect it is due to shoulder locks being illegal in newaza. I've asked around online and plenty of BJJ guys have told me that the omoplata isn't really used at their school, for whatever reason, probably because it is not taught very often.

      I've also noticed that judoka tend to be put off by it. I heard a couple say "That looks complicated!" when I first showed them. It's really just as "complicated" as any armbar or triangle, but it involves a lot of motion and positioning that is unusual (and therefore scary!) compared to "standard" attacks.

      I don't know if this has anything to do with your question or not, but one important thing to know about the omoplata is that most people don't finish it as a submission. It's actually used as a sweep most of the time. Talking to blue, purple and brown belts, all of them rarely do the omoplata with the intention of ending with the shoulder lock, but many of them have it as a stable sweep. You won't see it finishing many people in competition, but you might see variations used as sweeps.

      Comment


        #4
        Hmm... Kind of what I was guessing.

        Comment


          #5
          Stephan Kesting writes about it likes it's all the rage, but I think this article is a bit dated:

          http://www.grapplearts.com/Omo-Plata-Article.htm

          Nino "Elvis" Schembri, Jean-Jacques Machado, Antonio Rodrigo "Minotauro" Nogueira, BJ Penn and others have all made great use of it at high level MMA and grappling, so I wouldn't call it "low percentage". As a submission, yes, you won't see that, but as a sweep and setup to other submissions, it does great.
          Last edited by Aesopian; 3/07/2005 2:25pm, .

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            #6
            Submission aspect is more what I was referring to.
            Thanks all.

            Comment


              #7
              good post AESOPIAN

              Comment


                #8
                ya, actually Vargas was the first one to use the omoplata on me, but I didn't really know what the fuck he was doing, then I actually learned it for real from Adriano Lucio. The omoplata is NOT illegal in judo, so we use it and practice it quite a bit in our club, although we probably don't count because we're mixing Judo and BJJ. I'm actually getting a lot better at it and use it to submit at least 30-40% of the time. Maybe it's because my triangles and armbars always suck, but I somehow always end up there. I use it to tap the newbies all the time. I think it works well for me though because I'm bigger and harder to flip once the weight of my hip is on the shoulder and in a gi it's very easy to reach over and grab the belt which really helps finish this move off.

                Vargas made me chickenwing/crucifix him with my close arm last week so that I could finish the submission. I don't know how it fairs against experienced grapplers, but against judoka it's right-on.
                "Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration." -A. Lincoln

                Vote your conscience.... Vote Libertarian!

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Aesopian
                  I expect someone will come in with the Indian vale tudo photo and say "OIMG THE OMPLATA IS OLD" and someone else will post the Japanese name for judo's "rice cart wheel lock".

                  But talking around, it seem the omoplata isn't very well known outside of BJJ, and not even widely popular within BJJ. I know Te No Kage! didn't learn it until a BJJ black belt did a seminar at his judo school. Colin had never heard of it until I sent him to a BJJ.org technique page on it. I suspect it is due to shoulder locks being illegal in newaza. I've asked around online and plenty of BJJ guys have told me that the omoplata isn't really used at their school, for whatever reason, probably because it is not taught very often.

                  I've also noticed that judoka tend to be put off by it. I heard a couple say "That looks complicated!" when I first showed them. It's really just as "complicated" as any armbar or triangle, but it involves a lot of motion and positioning that is unusual (and therefore scary!) compared to "standard" attacks.

                  I don't know if this has anything to do with your question or not, but one important thing to know about the omoplata is that most people don't finish it as a submission. It's actually used as a sweep most of the time. Talking to blue, purple and brown belts, all of them rarely do the omoplata with the intention of ending with the shoulder lock, but many of them have it as a stable sweep. You won't see it finishing many people in competition, but you might see variations used as sweeps.

                  Yeah that about sums it up. We as a "SAMBO" group usually stay on the latest and greatest but have a core group of submissions. Omapolatta is not one of those submissions but we do teach it for transitional purposes. I actually hate the name Omapolata per one of my posts 2 months ago about all these strange names. Our main philosophy is if it works don't argue.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    What else is there to call it? I refuse to call it "shoulder coil" on the grounds of that being what catch wrestling calls it.
                    Last edited by Aesopian; 3/07/2005 4:44pm, .

                    Comment


                      #11
                      What about leg Kimura, leg shoulder lock. sheesh, and they think you're smart.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        I would have thought the omoplata was standard fare in any BJJ school. I never use it to tap someone, but pretty much for the sweep. Obviously if it's there I'll take it, but it's hard to finish on a good guy, but it doesn't matter as long as you get the sweep and end up on top. As far as no-gi it's quite difficult to get, but you can use it to transition into a toe-hold ala Mir vs Abbot in UFC.

                        It really is a great technique that you can get from anywhere and I think it's essential for a good triangle/armbar from guard game. One of the brown belts at my club is very dangerous with the omoplata from everywhere so you can never feel safe rolling with him.
                        Although Stephan Kesting has already been mentioned, if anyone is interested in learning about the omoplata - definately get his videos on it as they are the best I've seen.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          we are taught the omoplata as a goto from a failed arm kimura, armbar, traingle ...

                          but i dont think ive seen it ever used ...

                          i can get the omoplata on smaller guys ... but thats it ...

                          getting the rolling omoplata is sweet ... =)
                          totoro-san ... world sushi munching champion ...

                          Comment


                            #14
                            In three + years of BJJ, I've had a shot at it while free rolling exactly 3 times. This might be a comment on my skill, rather than the efficacy of the move.

                            Love it though. It's one of those things like just COOL to train.
                            Monkey Ninjas! Attack!

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Another name for it is "Sune Garami", meaning Sune=shin / Garami=entanglement.
                              Like in judo you have "Ude Garami" meaning forearm entanglement same as Kimura

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