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    Originally posted by MEGA JESUS-SAN
    The problem with this argument is that it attempts to write an excuse to ignore valid arguments.
    The problem with this is that there is no argument, or anything of subtance to debate with. If you had said something valid...then we'd still be talking about it. Saying "wing chun sucks" alone...is not a valid argument. Get some knowledge in striking arts and grappling arts, and then come talk to me.


    Originally posted by MEGA JESUS-SAN
    And this one tries to suggest that good fighters will support WC.
    Good fighters who understand wing chun would. But then fighting "style" is a matter of opinion, different strokes for different folks.



    Originally posted by MEGA JESUS-SAN
    This of course ignores my experience in kenjutsu and tries to pass of my experience with other MA as my overall experience.
    Note the first reply. Kenjutsu, is the art of the sword, Iado, is the art of drawing the sword from it's sheath and typically killing with one blow. I happen to know about this subject because I've...(gasp)...actually done a bit of it, as I am a sword collector as well. What you're failing to understand again, is that Kenjutsu alone (and the problem with this argument is....) doesn't teach you anything about striking or grappling, aside from doing it with your wooden stick.

    Get a grip man. Valid arguments come from people with valid experience to speak from. Would you take someone seriously who had no experience of Kenjutsu? Or better yet, would you be taking someone seriously who studies another style and knew nothing of yours telling you that kenjutsu sucks? It doesn't pertain to things you would run into on the street, and you'll never see it in mma....but it has a lot of value to those who wish to study the traditional japanese art of the sword. Does it mean you will know how to get out of figure four lock? Nope....why do I know that? I've experience in both areas.

    Comment


      Originally posted by Vankuen
      The problem with this is that there is no argument, or anything of subtance to debate with. If you had said something valid...then we'd still be talking about it. Saying "wing chun sucks" alone...is not a valid argument. Get some knowledge in striking arts and grappling arts, and then come talk to me.
      The problem with this argument is that you didn't realize that I made your entire statement invalid.

      Anyway, this entire time I've been saying that WC blows because it's never been known not to. The burden of proof to show me an example of WC working is on you.

      Good fighters who understand wing chun would. But then fighting "style" is a matter of opinion, different strokes for different folks.
      Funny, since I seem to remember you yourself saying that WC isn't the best, which would mean that good fighters would ignore it and train in something better.

      Note the first reply. Kenjutsu, is the art of the sword, Iado, is the art of drawing the sword from it's sheath and typically killing with one blow. I happen to know about this subject because I've...(gasp)...actually done a bit of it, as I am a sword collector as well. What you're failing to understand again, is that Kenjutsu alone (and the problem with this argument is....) doesn't teach you anything about striking or grappling, aside from doing it with your wooden stick.
      The point is I know enough about a fight to realize when WC isn't working. Even without any experience in any art, it's not hard to realize that the BJJ guy is kicking the WC guy's ass.

      Get a grip man. Valid arguments come from people with valid experience to speak from. Would you take someone seriously who had no experience of Kenjutsu? Or better yet, would you be taking someone seriously who studies another style and knew nothing of yours telling you that kenjutsu sucks?
      The problem here is that kenjutsu is a tried and true art. Obviously if it didn't work it would have survived for so many centuries; bushi would have found something else that did work. WC doesn't have this defense, and this is where my entire argument is coming from. If kenjutsu was an untried art, then anyone would have a strong point when they mention that it's an untried art.

      Comment


        Originally posted by MEGA JESUS-SAN
        The problem with this argument is that you didn't realize that I made your entire statement invalid.
        And how did you do that? By saying wing chun sucks? Please...you've done nothing up to this point. If you did, then by all means please elaborate as to precisely how you did it.

        Originally posted by MEGA JESUS-SAN
        Anyway, this entire time I've been saying that WC blows because it's never been known not to. The burden of proof to show me an example of WC working is on you.
        I don't need proof. For some reason you feel that you need proof...probably because you like the style but don't want to admit it since the majority of webwarriors on here are also on the bandwagon.


        Originally posted by MEGA JESUS-SAN
        Funny, since I seem to remember you yourself saying that WC isn't the best, which would mean that good fighters would ignore it and train in something better.
        I did say that wing chun is limited. No style is the best, and as soon as you get that through your head, and expand your mind above the technique/style level, the better off you will be. You take what is useful (and to do that you have to learn about the subject first hand) and then you get rid of what is useless (again by training the hell out of the technique and then applying it...pragmatic...remember?)

        Originally posted by MEGA JESUS-SAN
        The point is I know enough about a fight to realize when WC isn't working. Even without any experience in any art, it's not hard to realize that the BJJ guy is kicking the WC guy's ass.
        What you know is shit about nothing and you've said it yourself. What you know is what you've seen on TV...nothing more. Until YOU get real knowledge of the subject at hand, and apply what you think does and doesn't work, you will continue to know nothing.


        Originally posted by MEGA JESUS-SAN
        The problem here is that kenjutsu is a tried and true art. Obviously if it didn't work it would have survived for so many centuries; bushi would have found something else that did work. WC doesn't have this defense, and this is where my entire argument is coming from. If kenjutsu was an untried art, then anyone would have a strong point when they mention that it's an untried art.
        On the contrary, wing chun does have this defense. If you knew anything of the style you would know this. It's still around, and more widespread then ever. It was created as a means of fighting off the ching government using methods unknown to the majority of the people then. It was created for close quarters combat which was a necessity in southern china due to the demographics of the area. It's been used throughout history and up to the present. But here's the catch...you're using history to validate your art. I could care less what feats wing chun guys did 200 years ago...it has no bearing on my training today. You shouldn't care what bushi did 1000 years ago, as it doesn't have any bearing on your outdated art today either. And P.S...you missed the point. The point is I knew of both subjects whereas you know just about nothing on either subject.

        Comment


          Originally posted by Vankuen
          And how did you do that? By saying wing chun sucks? Please...you've done nothing up to this point. If you did, then by all means please elaborate as to precisely how you did it.
          I pointed out that you were trying to give yourself a reason to ignore my points against WC,

          I don't need proof. For some reason you feel that you need proof...probably because you like the style but don't want to admit it since the majority of webwarriors on here are also on the bandwagon.
          You don't need proof because you're gullible. I, on the other hand, refuse to believe in something until I see proof.

          I did say that wing chun is limited. No style is the best, and as soon as you get that through your head, and expand your mind above the technique/style level, the better off you will be. You take what is useful (and to do that you have to learn about the subject first hand) and then you get rid of what is useless (again by training the hell out of the technique and then applying it...pragmatic...remember?)
          The problem here is that it ignores that you yourself basically said that there's more effective styles for everything WC has to offer. In other words, you admitted that it would be more constructive to ignore WC and train in things like Muay Thai or BJJ.

          In any case, there's no question that some arts are simply better than others. Watch me paraphrase myself now.

          Originally posted by "MEGA JESUS-SAN"[/quote
          A good style won't make up for a bad fighter, but a bad style won't make a good fighter either.
          What you know is shit about nothing and you've said it yourself. What you know is what you've seen on TV...nothing more. Until YOU get real knowledge of the subject at hand, and apply what you think does and doesn't work, you will continue to know nothing.
          I don't think it's fair to say that I have no real knowledge when I know that WC has never stood up to a tried and true style, meaning either WC sucks or everyone who practices it does.

          On the contrary, wing chun does have this defense. If you knew anything of the style you would know this. It's still around, and more widespread then ever. It was created as a means of fighting off the ching government using methods unknown to the majority of the people then. It was created for close quarters combat which was a necessity in southern china due to the demographics of the area. It's been used throughout history and up to the present. But here's the catch...you're using history to validate your art. I could care less what feats wing chun guys did 200 years ago...it has no bearing on my training today. You shouldn't care what bushi did 1000 years ago, as it doesn't have any bearing on your outdated art today either.
          Any documented cases of it actually doing this job, however?

          I love how you claim history doesn't matter. Using that rationale, we shouldn't use the excellent past of BJJ to assume that it's an excellent art, or Judo's history to assume that it's an excellent art, or any other style's history. We shouldn't use the history of anything to assume anything! Who needs to learn from historic example anyway?

          And P.S...you missed the point. The point is I knew of both subjects whereas you know just about nothing on either subject
          Because we have discussed kenjutsu, and thus you know what my experience with kenjutsu is. Right?

          Comment


            That civilisation may not sink,
            Its great battle lost,
            Quiet the dog, tether the pony
            To a distant post;
            Our master Caesar is in the tent
            Where the maps are spread,
            His eyes fixed upon nothing,
            A hand under his head.


            - W.B. Yeats

            Comment


              Training muay thai and using wing chun as a supplimental style is the best use for wing chun I have heard yet, which is why I haven't touch this argument. The poor performance of wing chun on its own is almost indefensible, but I can see someone getting something from it with a more solid base.

              Just this week I was talking to a guy who has done boxing, kickboxing, Shidokan and has just been in fights, and had also done wing chun. I asked him what he thought of it. His words exactly were "It's gay". But then he said he had got a few little things from it he liked, and showed me.

              One was from when you are squaring off in a boxers stance and just quickly grab one of his wrists and yank it while throwing an overhand punch. I suppose this is "trapping", in the most gross sense possible.

              The other was just one of those low kicky stomps. He said it never really hurts anyone, but it makes them turn sideways. He said the kick was not very useful as taught, since it had no really force behind it, and you just sort of sat back and jabbed your foot out, when it would work better as an aggressive semi-stomp followed by a "boxing" punch.

              So two tricks was about all he took from it.

              He also gave me some impromptu trapping and chi sau demos. My sister was worried we looked like two gay ravers doing this in front of our school.

              He also said anyone in wing chun that thinks you're not supposed to turn your hips when puching is an idiot.

              Comment


                I want five more pages of Mega J arguments!
                "Preparing mentally, the most important thing is, if you aren't doing it for the love of it, then don't do it." - Benny Urquidez

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Aesopian
                  He also said anyone in wing chun that thinks you're not supposed to turn your hips when puching is an idiot.
                  I tried WC for about 3 months before I decided it wasn't right for me, and even in that short time this was drilled home - that was were the stength was supposed to come from - the swivel of the foot, hips and shoulder add momentum to the punch. The punch is meant to come from the ground. Pretty much everything in WC seems to come from the ground.

                  Unfortunately that's also where it's practitioners seem to end up.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by MEGA JESUS-SAN
                    I pointed out that you were trying to give yourself a reason to ignore my points against WC,
                    Actually just to ignore your posts in general.


                    Originally posted by MEGA JESUS-SAN
                    You don't need proof because you're gullible. I, on the other hand, refuse to believe in something until I see proof.
                    See that's where your problem lies. You want to see proof, instead of experience it. I on the other hand, go out and test things. I am my own proof. The only person who's gullible here...is the one using outside sources to come to conclusions on things. Like I said over and over here...get some experience, then come talk to me.


                    Originally posted by MEGA JESUS-SAN
                    The problem here is that it ignores that you yourself basically said that there's more effective styles for everything WC has to offer. In other words, you admitted that it would be more constructive to ignore WC and train in things like Muay Thai or BJJ.
                    I didn't ignore anything...repost what I said, and then re-read it instead of twisting it around.


                    Originally posted by MEGA JESUS-SAN
                    I don't think it's fair to say that I have no real knowledge when I know that WC has never stood up to a tried and true style, meaning either WC sucks or everyone who practices it does.
                    Once again, you're using the internet and TV as your basis. Until you get real experience, it's quite fair to reiterate the FACT that you have no real knowledge of what you speak of.


                    Originally posted by MEGA JESUS-SAN
                    I love how you claim history doesn't matter. Using that rationale, we shouldn't use the excellent past of BJJ to assume that it's an excellent art, or Judo's history to assume that it's an excellent art, or any other style's history. We shouldn't use the history of anything to assume anything! Who needs to learn from historic example anyway?
                    That's about right. It doesn't matter, relative to how well YOU will perform in any given art. That's the way I see things, and that's the way I approach training. You however, don't train in anything youre speaking of...and thus have no real argument.

                    Originally posted by MEGA JESUS-SAN
                    Because we have discussed kenjutsu, and thus you know what my experience with kenjutsu is. Right?
                    I can tell what your experience is with fighting and training in general simply from your lack of theory and training ideas, and your inability to elaborate on anything. Whether or not you suck at using your stick is of no consequense to me.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Full Circle
                      I tried WC for about 3 months before I decided it wasn't right for me, and even in that short time this was drilled home - that was were the stength was supposed to come from - the swivel of the foot, hips and shoulder add momentum to the punch. The punch is meant to come from the ground. Pretty much everything in WC seems to come from the ground.

                      Unfortunately that's also where it's practitioners seem to end up.
                      That's where most fights end up....

                      Comment


                        Vankuen, I was being facetious...
                        *begs for mercy*
                        "Preparing mentally, the most important thing is, if you aren't doing it for the love of it, then don't do it." - Benny Urquidez

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by patfromlogan
                          Vankuen, I was being facetious...
                          *begs for mercy*
                          lol! I know, I tried to ignore him before and then he started whining about it. This is that last one I promise.

                          Comment


                            Aesopian: Valid point, but the discussion is whether or not WC is any good as an art in general, and you just said yourself that it's shit on its own.

                            Originally posted by Vankuen
                            Actually just to ignore your posts in general.
                            Ignoring an argument is ingoring an argument. I get bored of arguments and simply stop posting all the time, but I don't try to pull bullshit when I do it; I just stop posting. There's no reason to create a story to explain why you won't be replying anymore.

                            See that's where your problem lies. You want to see proof, instead of experience it. I on the other hand, go out and test things. I am my own proof. The only person who's gullible here...is the one using outside sources to come to conclusions on things. Like I said over and over here...get some experience, then come talk to me.
                            This argument still tries to usurp history as being a valid means of proving anything. Like I've said, I don't believe anything has any value until I see that it does.

                            I didn't ignore anything...repost what I said, and then re-read it instead of twisting it around.
                            Did you or did you not admit that there's stronger striking arts, stronger grappling arts, and so on?

                            Once again, you're using the internet and TV as your basis. Until you get real experience, it's quite fair to reiterate the FACT that you have no real knowledge of what you speak of.
                            Why train in WC for three years so I can reaffirm what I've confirmed from every documented case of WC vs anything?

                            That's about right. It doesn't matter, relative to how well YOU will perform in any given art. That's the way I see things, and that's the way I approach training. You however, don't train in anything youre speaking of...and thus have no real argument.
                            Who said anything about the individual? If 100 Yellow Bamboo pracitioners could consistiently beat 100 Judoka, I might believe Yellow Bamboo had some merit to it, or that there's a lot of incompetent Judoka about. If a style can perform successfully and do it consistiently, there's no reason to assume it isn't effective. Likewise, if a style has not performed successfully, and done so consistiently, there's no reason to assume it is effective.

                            I can tell what your experience is with fighting and training in general simply from your lack of theory and training ideas, and your inability to elaborate on anything. Whether or not you suck at using your stick is of no consequense to me.
                            So could you tell me how this actually reflects on my ability in kenjutsu?

                            lol! I know, I tried to ignore him before and then he started whining about it. This is that last one I promise.
                            I wasn't whining, I ws pointing out that you were refusing to continue an argument but still spouting the side you were supposed to be defending.

                            Comment


                              .......I simply....cannot....believe.....there are people.....this stupid and hard headed. But it's entertaining I suppose in between TRAINING to debate with morons...

                              Comment


                                I have to join in on this - as I frequently talk to Vankuen on a wing chun forum...I'm doing wing chun for 30 years...teaching it for 20...spent 8 years as a direct student of Moy Yat...and the last 22 years as a direct student of William Cheung in Traditional Wing Chun (TWC) - a much different style than most wing chun systems....and I mix it with Catch-as-Catch-can wrestling....some boxing moves....some Muay Thai elbow and knee strikes from the clinch.

                                But TWC is the sun around which everything I do revolves...because it is a great fighting system.

                                The problem with "wing chun", in general, is that most lineages/schools just use the basic chain punching attack...overly simplistic footwork, some low straight kicks with no real power....and a few traps while hitting with the other hand - and that's about it.

                                BUT THAT'S NOT ENOUGH.

                                That approach is bullshit - and any good boxer, kickboxer, Thai-boxer, kyokushin, BJJ, wrestling, MMA, or plain ol' ass-kicker streetfighter can deal with that.

                                So in that sense about 90 percent of the wing chun world is WAY BEHIND the times, imo.

                                But the other 10 percent...

                                Watch out !!!

                                Those guys can definitely bring it.
                                Last edited by Victor Parlati; 3/08/2005 3:54pm, .

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