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"More money for education." Yeah, what kind?

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    "More money for education." Yeah, what kind?

    So we often hear (sometimes from my own lips) that one of the better areas to invest in is the education of our kids. But throwing money at a problem doesn't make it go away if there isn't an effective strategy to resolve an issue. It's a combination of identifying where the problems are, and how to best resolve them.

    Lets talk about public education in your country of residence or anywhere you have significant experience/knowledge in. What do you think are the primary flaws in that country's educational programs (K-12, college, all are open for discussion), and what do you see as effective remedies for those ills?

    For example, should kids get vouchers to go to schools where they want to go? Should schools automatically cut music and phys ed classes in order to free up funds? Should philosophy or psychology be mandatory subjects for at least a quarter or semester? Mandatory computer classes?

    #2
    My pet peeve is the Religious Right's concerted backlash against science education. I'd also point out insufficient federal funding for inner-city schools, underpaid/underqualified educators, cutbacks in art and music programs and poor to non-existant after-school programs.

    Obviously, more money isn't going to keep the Fundies out of science class, especially when they're running the schools or sitting on the school board, but money would probably help everything else.

    Rudy Reyes > Bear Grylls

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      #3
      Not every inner-city school is underfunded. I posted a study here of how the DC school district spends more than twice what our local school district spends per student, with significantly less results.

      The best way to encourage improvement is to stop funding inadequacy. When someone's ass is on the line if they fail, they work much harder.

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        #4
        Originally posted by Ka-Bar
        My pet peeve is the Religious Right's concerted backlash against science education. I'd also point out insufficient federal funding for inner-city schools, underpaid/underqualified educators, cutbacks in art and music programs and poor to non-existant after-school programs.

        Obviously, more money isn't going to keep the Fundies out of science class, especially when they're running the schools or sitting on the school board, but money would probably help everything else.

        Bullshit. It has been shown time and time again that throwing more money at the problem won't improve education. Most lefties will even concede as much nowadays.
        Optional signature you may use to appear at bottom of your posts.

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          #5
          Originally posted by wakinonioi
          Bullshit. It has been shown time and time again that throwing more money at the problem won't improve education. Most lefties will even concede as much nowadays.
          Didn't I just completely acknowledge this point in the FIRST post of the thread?

          But throwing money at a problem doesn't make it go away
          How about something a little more constructive than rehashing what's already said.

          ==

          Phrost: Given the dissonance between funding levels and performance, where do you see the flaw? The quality of teaching? Teachers not caring enough because they shouldn't be teachers or they're underpaid?

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            #6
            Originally posted by samurai_steve
            Didn't I just completely acknowledge this point in the FIRST post of the thread?

            ?

            Ya think that might be why the comment wasn't directed towards you?
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              #7
              True. My apologies. :p

              But Ka-Bar pointed out areas that likely suffer only from underfunding. I've seen research indicating how participating in a music program increases aspects of decision-making, cognition, etc., that are desirable traits in the marketplace. But when budget cuts come up, what's the first thing heard?

              "Well, kids need to focus on reading and math more than anything else. Axe the music program. ANd put the phys ed program on the chopping block: Parents and sports teams should get the kids all the fitness they need."

              I came from a school with like, 7 bands and 4 orchestras. I was a violin player all through that time, and I think it's benefitted me a great deal beyond being able to make music. I learned the value of practice, the rewards of success, and leadership (concertmaster of one of the orchestras), among other things.

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                #8
                Privatize schools, get the government out of running them for anything other than setting basic standards to be met. The school system as it is is bloated and corrupt. Running classes until 11 AM on/around holidays, just to qualify for federal/state funding for that day is an example of an accepted form of fraud most public schools participate in.

                Private schools spend less money per student with much better results. We need to stop funding mediocrity and inadequacy. If people are taxed less, they can provide for their children's tuition, and free market competition will keep prices reasonable.

                The fact that liberals don't have enough faith in the responsibility of people to pay for their children's education (taxation for 'public schools') much less save for their own retirement (forced contributions into the bloated Social Security scam), says a lot about where their agenda lies. In the Nanny State, the Nannies have the power over the helpless children.

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                  #9
                  An excellent point.
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                    #10
                    Doh wrong thread on that.

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                      #11
                      I think a real problem is lack of funding for hardworking graduate students, leading to people with advanced degrees becoming slowly more and more bitter as they see their college classmates earn three times more than them.. ;)

                      I'm kidding. I think part of the problem with public schooling in America today is a large and bloated administration which hides behind the public schools themselves. Those guys get paid more than teachers, and if you cut funding, they're not the ones who get fired.

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                        #12
                        Originally posted by wakinonioi
                        Bullshit. It has been shown time and time again that throwing more money at the problem won't improve education. Most lefties will even concede as much nowadays.
                        Sure, money without accountability is nothing, but when there's not enough money in the school district's budget to keep the orchestra afloat, hire 10 more teachers, or to recarpet a classroom, what's gonna fix that?

                        Rudy Reyes > Bear Grylls

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                          #13
                          Originally posted by Jack Frost
                          Privatize schools, get the government out of running them for anything other than setting basic standards to be met. The school system as it is is bloated and corrupt. Running classes until 11 AM on/around holidays, just to qualify for federal/state funding for that day is an example of an accepted form of fraud most public schools participate in.

                          Private schools spend less money per student with much better results. We need to stop funding mediocrity and inadequacy. If people are taxed less, they can provide for their children's tuition, and free market competition will keep prices reasonable.

                          The fact that liberals don't have enough faith in the responsibility of people to pay for their children's education (taxation for 'public schools') much less save for their own retirement (forced contributions into the bloated Social Security scam), says a lot about where their agenda lies. In the Nanny State, the Nannies have the power over the helpless children.
                          The fact is that public education has done obvious and great good. No question about it. None. At all. The current US model is sub-optimal. But the education of a populace is one of those cases in which privatization will not do.

                          Do you think an uneducated parent knows the value of an education? Seriously, if public education were abolished, there would either be too few schools to educated any but the very rich, or those schools plus a hoard of fly-by-nights that promised to put your children on track to be doctors. No more "non-marketable" skills by jolly!

                          And that's just sub-university level. At the university level, public education has been an enormous success. The public research university model is tested and true. Joe Schmoe may not understand why any money is spent on researching Drosophila reproductive behavior, but he doesn't understand the Human Genome Project either.

                          In California, a serious look does need to be taken at community colleges.
                          Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the fuck I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog

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                            #14
                            Originally posted by Chrimbo Slice
                            I think its pretty clear that private, money oriented educational facilities will not fly. Aren't martial arts schools educational facilities in a sense? Now, do you want that same mentality applied to schooling? God forbid.
                            Different skillset being taught. General Education is vastly different than punching and kicking, especially when most MA schools don't truly compete using their skills.

                            Everyone has to go get a job, and their education is directly relevant to the type of job they get or college program they can get into. Martial Arts has few scenarios where skill can be objectively evaluated... your black belt doesn't translate into a 4.0.

                            The reason McDojos flourish is because of laws that make it very difficult to force an instructor to prove his fighting ability. In the absence of such protections, there'd be fewer instructors that were full of shit just as in the absence of more or less guaranteed funding, schools would have to compete for enrollment thereby improving the standards of education.

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                              #15
                              Originally posted by The Wastrel
                              The fact is that public education has done obvious and great good. No question about it. None. At all. The current US model is sub-optimal. But the education of a populace is one of those cases in which privatization will not do.

                              Do you think an uneducated parent knows the value of an education? Seriously, if public education were abolished, there would either be too few schools to educated any but the very rich, or those schools plus a hoard of fly-by-nights that promised to put your children on track to be doctors. No more "non-marketable" skills by jolly!

                              And that's just sub-university level. At the university level, public education has been an enormous success. The public research university model is tested and true. Joe Schmoe may not understand why any money is spent on researching Drosophila reproductive behavior, but he doesn't understand the Human Genome Project either.

                              In California, a serious look does need to be taken at community colleges.
                              I'm not calling for the immediate abolishment of public schools. I'm calling for something more along the lines of a use tax at the very least, to tax those with children in public schools while not taxing those who decide to pay for their children's education elsewhere. Such a system would either succeed in slowly restructuring the education system towards privatization while providing a streamlined, less-bloated system for those unable/unwilling to pay for it in the free market; or force the public school system to compete for funds more directly and thereby improving standards and cirriculum to achieve this end.

                              As things stand, there is little incentive for a public school to do more than just babysit kids for a few hours a day while shuffling them up the grade ladder. Teachers are underpaid, because any system without competition will be stagnant and doomed to ineffeciency and mediocrity. As far as I know, private school teachers don't complain about their salaries as much as public school teachers do. But then, private school teachers are often much more qualified for their jobs than the average public school teacher because of higher standards and inter-school competition for your child's enrollment.

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