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Gregaquaman has a Right to talk about Rights, and it is my Privilege

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  • Dr. Gonzo
    replied
    Originally posted by Bneterasedmynam View Post
    Gun safety comes from not being a fucking moron
    Not being a fucking moron really, really, really helps.

    But the 4 simple rules Michael mentioned codify core firearm safety principles, and are trainable, and supervisable, and measurable to prevent A LOT of the potential moron behavior in humans when it comes to firearms.

    And repeating those rules, and drilling those rules, and calling each other out on those rules, is in my view a very, very healthy and wholesome ritual that improves outcomes under regular conditions and stress conditions.

    Repetition of good safety habits can often penetrate minds that have the minimum table stakes to learn how to drive a car, handle a firearm, or to still own matches in countries that are prone to wildfires during the dry season.

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  • Bneterasedmynam
    replied
    Originally posted by Dr. Gonzo View Post
    Gun safety is trained, and is trainable, and a review of the four rules Michael mentioned should precede every session at the shooting range, every time we go to shoot or handle firearms where other humans may be present around us, or with us.
    I completely disagree. Gun safety comes from not being a fucking moron, which IMHO cannot be trained. Many so called trained experts in firearms have demonstrated this point.

    Leave a comment:


  • AprilRains
    replied
    Originally posted by hungryjoe View Post
    Would someone please dig up that video of the cop giving a lecture on gun safety in a classroom full of young high school students. The one who shot himself.
    https://youtu.be/S7ufT_6Kgy0

    Leave a comment:


  • Dr. Gonzo
    replied
    Originally posted by hungryjoe View Post
    Would someone please dig up that video of the cop giving a lecture on gun safety in a classroom full of young high school students. The one who shot himself.

    He had training.

    I chose to teach my daughters to drive through the parent taught program of our state rather than a three week paid instructor. I don't think they'd have been taught to turn into a skid, power through corners and some other nifty things to know when you're operating machinery that's killed far more people than firearms.

    ^because Greg's not talking about CC only. He thinks mandatory training is in order to even own a firearm.
    Yeah, when we teach firearm safety,

    we always demonstrate firearm safety preferably first on laser trainers, then airsoft replicas, then BB replicas, and finally triple checked cleared and unloaded firearms only when appropriate and necessary.

    As a matter of fact, I prefer training models that build people up from laser trainers to airsoft to bb replicas,

    and that only use live fire ammunition or real firearms when and where it is really relevant and necessary to do so.

    I generally will only do move and shoot and draw from holster with laser trainers, airsoft, or BB replicas for that reason as well - and I stay clear of groups or people doing that training with live ammunition except in the rarest of circumstances and only then if the tightest controls and senior range safety officers are in place.

    I am a paranoid and risk averse fucker when it comes to live fire environments.

    I would add: I would have done the gun safety demonstration with a laser trainer in that classroom, not even a checked and cleared firearm. A real firearm was unnecessary for that particular demonstration / training, and therefore should NOT have been used.
    Last edited by Dr. Gonzo; 1/24/2020 4:17pm, .

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  • hungryjoe
    replied
    Would someone please dig up that video of the cop giving a lecture on gun safety in a classroom full of young high school students. The one who shot himself.

    He had training.

    I chose to teach my daughters to drive through the parent taught program of our state rather than a three week paid instructor. I don't think they'd have been taught to turn into a skid, power through corners and some other nifty things to know when you're operating machinery that's killed far more people than firearms.

    ^because Greg's not talking about CC only. He thinks mandatory training is in order to even own a firearm.

    Leave a comment:


  • hungryjoe
    replied
    Originally posted by gregaquaman View Post
    Yes I have fired guns.

    And at what point does familiarity with guns suddenly change a perspective about responsible gun use?

    I mean I have argued three things. Registration, mandatory training and money spent on research in to gun violence. How exactly does being familiar with guns suddenly change that.

    I had to argue the benefits of training on this forum. At what point of comfort with guns does "training? Meh don't need it" comes in to play?

    it is not about being comfortable with guns that suddenly creates entitlement.
    I only asked if you'd ever been shooting.

    No to registration.

    Who dictates the parameters of "training"? Federal, state, county, city or local law? Who gives a pass/fail. Service members get a free pass?

    Money has been spent on studying gun violence. What's another study going to accomplish? Really. People are different. Motives are varied.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dr. Gonzo
    replied
    Originally posted by Bneterasedmynam View Post
    I understand your point here, I just do not think those are things can be trained.
    Gun safety is trained, and is trainable, and a review of the four rules Michael mentioned should precede every session at the shooting range, every time we go to shoot or handle firearms where other humans may be present around us, or with us.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dr. Gonzo
    replied
    For the record, I think most gun owners on this thread are for firearm and gun safety training,

    and enjoy firearm and gun safety training.

    As far as I am concerned, gun safety training should be mandatory in middle school and high school,

    and marksmanship training should be available as electives and/or after school middle school and high school sports.

    However, what Greg is discussing is simply as a means to further restrict private firearm ownership within the US, using training not as a meritorious activity, but as a means of firearm ownership restriction, etc.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bneterasedmynam
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael Tzadok View Post
    Well I think he is correct. I'm also an advocate of training for CC. If only few people can do it, and it is prohibitively expensive then that is a counter-productive model. FBI crime statistics say that less than 1% of gun crime is committed by a CCW holder. Also that leas than 5% of NDs happen by people who have regularly gone through basic gun safety courses.

    Indoctrination in the 3(or 4 depending on your school of thought) cardinal safety rules:
    1) Always assume the firearm is loaded
    2) Keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction at all times
    3)Keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot
    (4)Never aim at anything you do not intend to destroy)

    saves lives. Every ND is a direct result of violating at least one of those. Every ND that injures or kills someone is a direct result of violating all of them. They should absolutely be indoctrinated into everyone who is going to carry in public space. Ideally in every gun owner.
    I understand your point here, I just do not think those are things can be trained. People are either fuckwits or they aren't. The person I referenced who shot his dick off was trained by the military, yet still was a fuckwit. Adding extra stipulations to a right such as gun ownership/carry only serves to give those who oppose said rights a way of fucking you over, hence the retarded and expensive training requirements for Illinois. It doesn't in practice correlate to reducing incidents and it only serves to restrict rights.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bneterasedmynam
    replied
    Originally posted by Raycetpfl View Post
    What if I wanna carry my gun pointed at my dick and femoral artery?
    I worked with someone a long time ago who tried that technique, it didn't end well.

    Leave a comment:


  • Raycetpfl
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael Tzadok View Post
    Well I think he is correct. I'm also an advocate of training for CC. If only few people can do it, and it is prohibitively expensive then that is a counter-productive model. FBI crime statistics say that less than 1% of gun crime is committed by a CCW holder. Also that leas than 5% of NDs happen by people who have regularly gone through basic gun safety courses.

    Indoctrination in the 3(or 4 depending on your school of thought) cardinal safety rules:
    1) Always assume the firearm is loaded
    2) Keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction at all times
    3)Keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot
    (4)Never aim at anything you do not intend to destroy)

    saves lives. Every ND is a direct result of violating at least one of those. Every ND that injures or kills someone is a direct result of violating all of them. They should absolutely be indoctrinated into everyone who is going to carry in public space. Ideally in every gun owner.
    What if I wanna carry my gun pointed at my dick and femoral artery?

    Leave a comment:


  • Michael Tzadok
    replied
    Originally posted by Bneterasedmynam View Post
    Ummm...reading comprehension might be in question here. What the fuck are you talking about?? Training or indoctrination??
    Well I think he is correct. I'm also an advocate of training for CC. If only few people can do it, and it is prohibitively expensive then that is a counter-productive model. FBI crime statistics say that less than 1% of gun crime is committed by a CCW holder. Also that leas than 5% of NDs happen by people who have regularly gone through basic gun safety courses.

    Indoctrination in the 3(or 4 depending on your school of thought) cardinal safety rules:
    1) Always assume the firearm is loaded
    2) Keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction at all times
    3)Keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot
    (4)Never aim at anything you do not intend to destroy)

    saves lives. Every ND is a direct result of violating at least one of those. Every ND that injures or kills someone is a direct result of violating all of them. They should absolutely be indoctrinated into everyone who is going to carry in public space. Ideally in every gun owner.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bneterasedmynam
    replied
    Originally posted by gregaquaman View Post
    Then you would want to fix your trainng training model. I am not arguing for shit training. That would be silly.

    I don't understand that if you have shit training the solution is no training? Seems a bit lazy.
    Ummm...reading comprehension might be in question here. What the fuck are you talking about?? Training or indoctrination??

    Leave a comment:


  • Dr. Gonzo
    replied
    Originally posted by gregaquaman View Post
    Ok. So your point failed.

    You found a statistic that said some bushfires were intentionally lit and because matches cause fires therefore Australia should ban matches. We will call this the Gonzo study. Which is about as well thought out as izzy folau. Who suggested Australia legalised gay, marriage gay marriage causes bushfires so we should ban gay marriage.

    Now what you dont realise is guns and bushfires are different things and gun violence has it's own studies and it's own recommendations that are not just made up out of thin air. We will call that the rand study.

    And that bushfires have their own studies that are not made up out of thin air. We will call that the royal commission.

    And of course there are studies that measure freedoms. And we will call this the freedom house study.

    So the issue with the Gonzo study is you don't understand how statistics work well enough to come to any sort of sensible conclusion. This is because you already have a conclusion and are trying to find statistics and arguments that support that. Hence why you sound like you are in a cult.

    Using the actual studies and going off their recommendations be more boorish than making up reality to suit your emotional needs. But unfortunately that is the reality of the situation.
    The Gonzo study on Australian bushfires, as you call it, was produced by your own government, and your own country's association of academic criminology researchers, you moron.

    When you say that I do not understand statistics, thus implying that you do, and I don't, what were your personal and professional credentials to make that claim again?

    I have a Ph.D. in Decision Sciences, a Masters degree in Applied Econometrics, and a Masters degree in Risk Management / Actuarial Science.

    All three of which are data science / statistics graduate degrees.

    I am credentialed to teach statistics for university undergraduate and graduate credit, and do so professionally, for universities.

    And I have been a paid government contractor to interpret statistics and studies for various U.S. government agencies for the past two administrations.

    What were your personal and professional credentials regarding statistics, again?

    Your argument that guns should be restricted because sometimes people cause damage with guns is just as ridiculous as stating that matches should be banned because sometimes people use matches in ways that cause bushfires.

    Because you are ridiculous, and not too bright.
    Last edited by Dr. Gonzo; 1/24/2020 1:45pm, .

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  • gregaquaman
    replied
    Originally posted by Bneterasedmynam View Post
    Flintlocks don't count. Training doesn't in any way equal responsibility or mental stability. I will add that training requirements are often abused by the state that regulates them. Illinois is a great example of this. Our state requires training for CC cards. There are only a select few places allowed to do the training and it's purposely expensive. Registration is also abused, see New York and the now infamous gun locator website.
    Then you would want to fix your trainng training model. I am not arguing for shit training. That would be silly.

    I don't understand that if you have shit training the solution is no training? Seems a bit lazy.

    Leave a comment:

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