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Are Americans over-aggressively prescribing psychiatric meds & hormones to young kids

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    Are Americans over-aggressively prescribing psychiatric meds & hormones to young kids

    Originally posted by Tramirezmma View Post
    Mods, move or delete my response if you'd be so inclined, I don't want to shit up Ev's thread.

    Dr. G, these are some Breitbart worthy shitty takes. I'm going to be super charitable and assume you are either just stirring the pot or uneducated on trans issues and the process of a child actually coming to be on puberty blockers. Article 3 is just a pretty silly hot take, but not as morally bankrupt as the second.

    Please take the time to do the research yourself, as it would appear you absolutely need to educate yourself.
    Originally posted by Dr. Gonzo View Post
    In any case, none of that is any of your business.

    I offered Evergray a paid writing commission to explore the issues of aggressively "treating" young children with anti-depression pills, ritalin, etc and hormones, not you.

    You are shitting up the thread.

    I am actually quite educated on issues with the transgender population.

    Telling people to go educate themselves when you don't understand the context of their points just makes you seem silly, and uneducated yourself.

    I am extremely skeptical of the general trend in America to replace active parenting, and activities, with putting young children on anti-depressants, ritalin, hormones, etc, instead of taking activity based approaches, combined with active parenting,

    just as I am skeptical of over-dosing young children excessively with religion or psychology or other ideologies that may interfere, rather than help children to become well adjusted adults.

    But, again, if you have concerns about those lines of research being pursued, take it up on another thread.
    There has been a disturbing trend for sometime for Americans to aggressively dose their young children with psychiatric meds such as anti-depressants, ritalin, hormones, etc as if they were adults.

    In adults, anti-depressants are barely more effective than placebo in treating depression.

    There is zero long term data on children who have puberty delayed.

    Active parenting, music therapies, art therapies, dance, drama club, sports, martial arts, gardening, hunting, fishing, outdoor activities, working with animals, etc may all be more effective, and less risky approaches to treating young children who may suffer from depression or other mental issues, and should probably be tried exhaustively first before resorting to pills and hormones.

    The pharmaceutical industry has everything to gain from the preference of throwing pills, or hormones, at kids rather than activity therapies, and active parenting, especially when the kids then become predictable and recurring revenue customers for life.

    This is a very worthy stream of research.

    Unfortunately, a common response to those that suggest the issue be studied scientifically both from the pharmaceutical lobby, and the political correctness police, is an attempt to shame, stifle, or discredit such research attempts.

    As it relates to children, a naturally vulnerable population that cannot give consent for themselves, I find the research questions to be extremely important.
    Last edited by Dr. Gonzo; 11/04/2019 8:46pm, .

    #2
    Originally posted by Dr. Gonzo View Post
    Active parenting, music therapies, art therapies, dance, drama club, sports, martial arts, gardening, hunting, fishing, outdoor activities, working with animals, etc may all be more effective, and less risky approaches to treating children who may suffer from depression or other mental issues, and should probably be tried exhaustively first before resorting to pills and hormones.
    If I may add an anecdote re the use of Ritalin (even though not American, there are similar trends within Australia).

    Our youngest child has a dual diagnosis of ADHD and ASD. His ADHD was picked up quite early.

    We have been lucky in that my wife has worked in community services (disability and aged care) for over 20 years and is able to direct his care. She now authors his behaviour support plans for the schools after becoming frustrated with what was being produced through the system.

    We avoided chemical intervention for as long as possible, having tried just about every sport under the sun (though he still trains in Jiu Jitsu) and other diversional therapies coupled with very active parenting. But it was when we supported these activities with a mix of short and long acting ritalin that his schoolwork turned around from being at a C/D level to being at a A/B level.

    As you pointed out, though, we did exhaust practical avenues first and have maintained those alongside the prescription. Most importantly though we have a long term plan/goal to maintain the desired behaviours without the chemical support. And by long term I mean over the next 9-10 years.

    I would be interested in seeing the differences (if ever such a study could be designed/carried out) in outcomes between:
    - no intervention;
    - active intervention only;
    - chemical intervention only; and
    - combined active and chemical intervention.
    2018 Male Purple Belt Adult No Gi
    #2 Ranked Competitor - QBJJC

    Comment


      #3
      Disclaimer: I have 0 experience in this area.

      I have heard that effective ADD/ADHD treatment requires a stimulant, and that Ritalin is basically medicinal cocaine. Along those lines, I have heard that both caffeine and nicotine have been proffered and/or studied as effective therapies.
      Consider for a moment that there is no meme about brown-haired, brown-eyed step children.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by cualltaigh View Post
        If I may add an anecdote re the use of Ritalin (even though not American, there are similar trends within Australia).

        Our youngest child has a dual diagnosis of ADHD and ASD. His ADHD was picked up quite early.

        We have been lucky in that my wife has worked in community services (disability and aged care) for over 20 years and is able to direct his care. She now authors his behaviour support plans for the schools after becoming frustrated with what was being produced through the system.

        We avoided chemical intervention for as long as possible, having tried just about every sport under the sun (though he still trains in Jiu Jitsu) and other diversional therapies coupled with very active parenting. But it was when we supported these activities with a mix of short and long acting ritalin that his schoolwork turned around from being at a C/D level to being at a A/B level.

        As you pointed out, though, we did exhaust practical avenues first and have maintained those alongside the prescription. Most importantly though we have a long term plan/goal to maintain the desired behaviours without the chemical support. And by long term I mean over the next 9-10 years.

        I would be interested in seeing the differences (if ever such a study could be designed/carried out) in outcomes between:
        - no intervention;
        - active intervention only;
        - chemical intervention only; and
        - combined active and chemical intervention.
        Great share.

        One of my children is a natural student.

        The other one is a "C" student that is naturally high energy, and is more interested in sports, etc.

        From my own perspective, I think we are buying into a scam, and a group lie, that we have come to accept as dogma.

        This is the idea that a child who is not an "A" student, and is a "C" student is somehow doomed for life.

        This is utter bullshit.

        Also, one does not have to go to university to be a success in life, including financially.

        And one can be a "C" student, or worse, and learn how to be an academic student later in life, if one wishes.

        My "C" student kid was suggested to have ADHD by the school counselor, and she even brought up the potential use of ritalin.

        My response was to say, "Let me get this straight. My kid gets distracted in school, and would rather be running around. And for that, you would like to give him an upper so he studies harder and gets better grades. Fuck you."

        I do not judge at all your response to this societal dilemma for your child.

        I merely comment how I choose to handle this issue.

        Some kids are high energy kids.

        Some kids are bookworms and good written test takers.

        Some kids are good at applied hands on activities.

        Some kids have high emotional intelligence.

        So the fuck what.

        Fuck societies' little snob measures.

        I would add, are the good grades, and the price that comes with them really good for the kids, or good for bragging rights and "peace of mind" for the parents....?

        Some kids may really benefit from being medicated, but I am betting that most of the kids on these medications just got pills thrown at them for their parent's piece of mind.
        Last edited by Dr. Gonzo; 11/04/2019 9:20pm, .

        Comment


          #5
          I mean how did the human race manage before these drugs for children became a huge profit opportunity for the pharmaceutical companies....

          What did we do before we convinced everybody that any kid who did not go immediately to university after high school was doomed....

          We're such a stupid species, we will believe any damn thing so long as enough people repeat it as if it were true.

          Comment


            #6
            Let's add some other points-

            Standardized tests?

            30 students to a classroom?

            Teachers who may not really want to be there?

            Public schools that are institutionally stupid because they are State institutions...

            Private schools that may be wacka-doodle-do.

            Here's a thought, if a kid tanks a class, it may just mean they tanked that class.

            It's not necessarily a predictor of their future potential, which is a much more complex chain of events, and habits, and personal transformation.

            This is a system, a game, which means it can be gamed, and is gamed.

            I would be fairly skeptical of that and those systems for all of those reasons.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Dr. Gonzo View Post
              I mean how did the human race manage before these drugs for children became a huge profit opportunity for the pharmaceutical companies....

              What did we do before we convinced everybody that any kid who did not go immediately to university after high school was doomed....

              We're such a stupid species, we will believe any damn thing so long as enough people repeat it as if it were true.
              This is the basis of one of the arguments which eschews, or at least questions, medicinal treatment - the spectrum didn't exist, because we didn't have the poisons which caused it. Not much different from anti-vaxxers, imo.

              On the other hand, the same foundational thought leads to we didn't have the knowledge to diagnose, so this maybe existed all along, and it was handled through societal means, anything from making someone a pariah to mental incarceration to murder. There are certainly plenty of stories of "socially inept teenager gets beat to death by his jock classmates."
              Consider for a moment that there is no meme about brown-haired, brown-eyed step children.

              Comment


                #8
                And since we are having fun-

                We can see clearly in sports the effect of body development in children regarding athletic performance.

                Each kid has their own time, and at certain intervals, POP!, a big jump up in coordination, strength, and proprioception.

                And...of course this happens with brain development as well.

                And more loosely, maturity, cognition, etc, etc.

                But everybody is in a hurry to make sure their kid is not below bell curve, and really perceived as upper bell curve.

                Comment


                  #9

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by submessenger View Post
                    This is the basis of one of the arguments which eschews, or at least questions, medicinal treatment - the spectrum didn't exist, because we didn't have the poisons which caused it. Not much different from anti-vaxxers, imo.

                    On the other hand, the same foundational thought leads to we didn't have the knowledge to diagnose, so this maybe existed all along, and it was handled through societal means, anything from making someone a pariah to mental incarceration to murder. There are certainly plenty of stories of "socially inept teenager gets beat to death by his jock classmates."
                    Great points surely.

                    But, vaccines, and antibiotics, are not molecular analogs to methamphetamine that we give young children to make the little bastards study harder.

                    Nor drugs to delay puberty.

                    Nor drugs so we, as parents or teachers, don't have to deal with the fact that the kids are annoying little shits.

                    Annoying little shits are what you get when you fuck around without protection.

                    Many of the people on this forum are annoying shits, including yours truly.

                    So what....

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Dr. Gonzo View Post
                      And since we are having fun-

                      We can see clearly in sports the effect of body development in children regarding athletic performance.

                      Each kid has their own time, and at certain intervals, POP!, a big jump up in coordination, strength, and proprioception.

                      And...of course this happens with brain development as well.

                      And more loosely, maturity, cognition, etc, etc.

                      But everybody is in a hurry to make sure their kid is not below bell curve, and really perceived as upper bell curve.
                      So, the answer is soccer moms / helicopter parenting? My inner nihilist wants to latch on to that, but I think it's more complex. Certainly, we - as a species - are as adept at finding cures for problems that don't yet exist, as we are at defining problems for which cures might never exist.
                      Consider for a moment that there is no meme about brown-haired, brown-eyed step children.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Shut the hell up and train.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by submessenger View Post
                          So, the answer is soccer moms / helicopter parenting? My inner nihilist wants to latch on to that, but I think it's more complex. Certainly, we - as a species - are as adept at finding cures for problems that don't yet exist, as we are at defining problems for which cures might never exist.
                          Of course it's more complex.

                          I don't have any pat answers here.

                          We are dealing with individuals.

                          And that is part of the problem, we are following aggregate models too concernedly, and need to allow the individuals just a little benevolent chaos.

                          In laymen's terms, they are fucking kids, not averages, and not showpieces for us as parents.

                          Also, they are humans, so they are going to fuck up sometimes.

                          And as little humans, with no prior experience in the great wide world, surrounded by adults who are experienced fuck ups with their own agendas, the poor little bastards are especially prone to fuck up sometimes, because they only have fucked up adult humans to give them advice.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            You said what I said to reply to Sub without all the f-words...

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Dr. Gonzo View Post
                              You said what I said to reply to Sub without all the f-words...
                              Well, if I was feeling philosophical, I’d point out that the ruling class has been shoehorning the masses into said limited number of boxes to control us for the last 5 millennia or so.

                              Very rarely, the masses figure out they have power if they band together. The most successful version of which are the Unions.

                              Edit: Or maybe the police, the ruling class’ enforcers.
                              Shut the hell up and train.

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