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    Abortion

    "Women's right to choose", yada yada, "not uterus no opinion", blah blah, "what if she was raped", etc.

    Anyway, I likely have said that a few years ago now that a girl I was with decided she didn't want my child and decided to abort it after giving me all the hope in the world for many weeks that I was about to become a father. I might have also mentioned that she called me scared one day because she was "spotting" and needed to go to hospital and I was the only one that could take her, so I got to hear the heartbeat of my kid a couple of weeks before she killed it.

    And I was also so indoctrinated in the lead up to the abortion that I took her to the clinic and got myself in an altercation with a pro-lifer who was shaming women going into the clinic. He actually stumped me at the time, which probably sent my thought process down another path, potentially leading to where I am at now.

    I think my position on the debate was heavily influenced by one of my favourite songs as a teenager, What It's Like by Everlast. The second verse:

    Mary got pregnant from a kid named Tom that said he was in love
    He said, "don't worry about a thing, baby doll I'm the man you've been dreaming of."
    But three months later he say he won't date her or return her calls
    And she swear, "god damn, if I find that man I'm cuttin' off his balls"
    And then she heads for the clinic and she gets some static walking through the door
    They call her a killer, and they call her a sinner and they call her a whore
    God forbid you ever had to walk a mile in her shoes
    'Cause then you really might know what it's like to have to choose


    I felt this, for a number of reasons that I won't go into here (but that don't include me being Tom in the story).

    And it is the sentiment in the verse that has propelled forward these new laws that some of the American states have started implementing, late term abortions, third trimester, up until and including the goddamn dilation of the birth canal.

    But seriously, what the fuck? Like, I've heard some fucking disturbing conversations secretly recorded that show that there appears to be a callous disregard for life in the womb. Or the actual political enquiries that are on record saying that a woman could be literally in the middle of birth and if it affected their health (note this), the baby could be aborted, in that they would still have to give birth but they could make the child stillborn.

    If a baby can survive at 23 weeks outside of the womb, and if a woman's health is at risk, why wouldn't it just be delivered in the third trimester? Why kill it?

    Have I taken crazy pills? The more I learn about what is being pushed for in regards to abortion, the more conservative I become in this arena. Why is there so much vagueness and weasel wording going on in the laws?

    Anyway, thought I'd open it up for discussion.
    GET A RED BELT OR DIE TRYIN'.
    Originally posted by Devil
    I think Battlefields and I had a spirited discussion once about who was the biggest narcissist. We both wanted the title but at the end of the day I had to concede defeat. Can't win 'em all.
    Originally posted by BackFistMonkey
    I <3 Battlefields...

    #2
    Okay, so you are now a pro-lifer and want validation? I'm curious because the slant you've taken is highly one sided in your post. You lost a child, after a lie, with zero input as a man and in your pain a pro-lifer sent you down a specific road. As with most people in pain, your logic center short circuits and you start reading things which validate whatever emotion you are feeling.

    So, can you be clearer?

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by battlefields View Post
      "Women's right to choose", yada yada, "not uterus no opinion", blah blah, "what if she was raped", etc.

      Anyway, I likely have said that a few years ago now that a girl I was with decided she didn't want my child and decided to abort it after giving me all the hope in the world for many weeks that I was about to become a father. I might have also mentioned that she called me scared one day because she was "spotting" and needed to go to hospital and I was the only one that could take her, so I got to hear the heartbeat of my kid a couple of weeks before she killed it.

      And I was also so indoctrinated in the lead up to the abortion that I took her to the clinic and got myself in an altercation with a pro-lifer who was shaming women going into the clinic. He actually stumped me at the time, which probably sent my thought process down another path, potentially leading to where I am at now.

      I think my position on the debate was heavily influenced by one of my favourite songs as a teenager, What It's Like by Everlast. The second verse:



      I felt this, for a number of reasons that I won't go into here (but that don't include me being Tom in the story).

      And it is the sentiment in the verse that has propelled forward these new laws that some of the American states have started implementing, late term abortions, third trimester, up until and including the goddamn dilation of the birth canal.

      But seriously, what the fuck? Like, I've heard some fucking disturbing conversations secretly recorded that show that there appears to be a callous disregard for life in the womb. Or the actual political enquiries that are on record saying that a woman could be literally in the middle of birth and if it affected their health (note this), the baby could be aborted, in that they would still have to give birth but they could make the child stillborn.

      If a baby can survive at 23 weeks outside of the womb, and if a woman's health is at risk, why wouldn't it just be delivered in the third trimester? Why kill it?

      Have I taken crazy pills? The more I learn about what is being pushed for in regards to abortion, the more conservative I become in this arena. Why is there so much vagueness and weasel wording going on in the laws?

      Anyway, thought I'd open it up for discussion.
      I think you're in my group. I'm a Pro Choice advocate but I am anti abortion. The idea that anyone should celebrate an abortion is ridiculous in the same way you should shame somebody who had to make, what should be, a difficult choice. I personally find this new law reprehensible. I am just not sure I have all the facts yet although I have heard the interviews with the people who created the law.

      I have been there when a mother has aborted her child. I helped her heal and get over it. Hell I brought her to the fucking clinic. The next year she got pregnant again, by the same dude, and chose an abortion again. I offered to adopt the child. She said no. I told her I was out and she got the abortion again.

      Comment


        #4
        I am for legalized abortion up until the point of viability,

        and then against legalized abortion after the point of viability, favoring induced labor, and or cesarean after that.

        Which means that I am either "pro-life" and "pro-choice",

        or neither "pro-life" and "pro-choice", depending on how one looks at it.

        In any case, a baby at the point of viability can thrive and survive outside of the hose mother if it is not wanted, given the state of today's neo-natal medicine.

        And at that point of viability, the procedures to abort differ from the procedures to safely remove the baby only in the additional step of killing that viable baby as it comes out.

        My view mirrors the law in many progressive countries, including Sweden, etc.

        This issue, like so many other issues, is not necessarily always a totally for or totally against issue - and medical specifics matter.

        Comment


          #5
          I used to be pro-choice. I would describe myself now as being pro-don't-choose-abortion, but I'm not going to get in anyone's face about it, or proselytize. It's a private decision between the parent(s) and their support networks, and I think it should remain that way. USians are guaranteed (for now) the right to Life. An anchor baby by two Guatemalan parents is a USian, under the current laws.

          The line of life should be drawn, somewhere, so that we know when it's OK to interfere (or not) with the choice to abort. As a father, I can tell you all about seeing the heartbeat on ultrasound, listening to it every night, I think as early as 5-ish weeks, post coitus. How the baby develops a personality, reacting to certain foods, or sounds, or temperatures, a bit later on. 23 weeks is a bit past that, generally speaking. But, that's our line in the sand, on average, because "viability." I don't think that's a good line.

          Medical technology will continue to push the boundaries, because there are people who try and try to have a baby, and when that embryo is in jeopardy, bring in every machine that goes "bing," is their philosophy. "Viability," will thus track medical technology, and we're getting closer to being able to do this ex utero. For that matter, China had stories recently about genetic engineering to protect against HIV, etc. And, in the far other extreme, there was a story I posted earlier about a guy trying to sue his parents for not getting his permission to birth him. The engineered Chinese babies certainly didn't ask to have their genes altered.

          So, when does Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness begin? Where do we draw the line? I think this is not something we can set to paper, but something we will have to revisit every couple of years.
          Consider for a moment that there is no meme about brown-haired, brown-eyed step children.

          Comment


            #6
            Wow thats messed up Omega.

            if people dont want kids either use a rubber or have a strong pull out game.

            My friend has recently divorced. He wasnt true to his wife, the guilt ate him and confessed. She went back to her parents place and he was in a bad state of mind for a good year. His now ex wife also aborted their son 4 months into the pregnancy. I think thats what really screwed with him.

            HEK 293, look that up. People are making money off abortions in a way you wouldnt think.

            Comment


              #7
              I'm all for as many abortions as possible. Too many people out there as it is. Yeetus that fetus.

              Comment


                #8
                King without a crown

                Comment


                  #9
                  I discovered a fairly elegant solution to the whole abortion problem.

                  I got a vasectomy.

                  And, let's be honest.

                  I'm no Devil.

                  I don't go around preying on vulnerable wives looking to cuckold their husbands,

                  mothers looking for a good time,

                  and gender confused experimenters,

                  all buying into this electronic app lottery, of STDs, cigarettes,

                  and pee coming out in strange and unpredictable directions.

                  I'm just your average American.

                  The kind that doesn't get laid a lot, but has a fair chance of digging into a plate of hot wings and beers,

                  while a caricature of a waitress attends on me,

                  all the while knowing that the waitress serving the table next to her could provide her more satisfaction

                  in an hour of oral stimulation without needlessly eager penetration, than I ever could.

                  But with her still preferring a middle aged man with a receding hairline, questionable erections, and a fat bank account, all the same.

                  As for me, I just want to get home.

                  Without getting covered in wing sauce,

                  Or getting picked up for some trumped up hate crime against vegans who like to wear penis hats engaged in coitus with their vagina hats,

                  Which is against the law, because those hats are cisgender,

                  and any crime that assumes the gender identity of those hats is a crime against all of us.
                  Last edited by Dr. Gonzo; 2/04/2019 11:27pm, .

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I'm torn between my desire to have a small government and my desire to protect life. Most abortions do not involve harm to anything that could be considered an infant. No functional brain, no child IMO. Death is brain death. If there is no brain, there cannot be a person no matter what the rest of the body looks like.

                    The brain begins developing beyond the point where it is just a lump of stem cells sometime in the 4th month as I understand it. Before that point, it literally cannot be said to feel pain because what is there has not formed the requisite connections even if it can perform autonomic motor responses.

                    On the subject of late term abortions as I understand them, there have to be serious issues with the unborn or the mother's health for them to be viable in the first place. I wouldn't listen to gotcha sound clips that can easily be either edited or cut to where you don't hear the whole story.

                    My understanding from looking into the Dr Tiller murder was that the women who get late term abortions are for the most part out of safe options to have a child and in many cases the fetus is disasterously malformed or that chances for a live healthy birth with no serious risk to the mother are basically non-existent.

                    Ectopic pregnancies happen in about 2% of pregnancies. That's 1 in 50, so it's not at all uncommon for abortion to be absolutely mandated because the fetus will die and the mother will die if allowed to go to term.

                    A woman may not know that anything is wrong until firmly into late term abortion territory, especially if she is poor or mentally ill or any number of things that would prevent her from having a sonogram. That's just how the world works. Biology is cruel.

                    If you look at the numbers on serious birth defects and medical complications then the number of late term abortions start to make a lot of sense.

                    In an ideal world I don't think they should be allowed past the 1st trimester but extraordinary conditions apply to the state of the human body.
                    "Pave the way for the little guy, Caligula!" Harry Solomon, September 28, 1999

                    Comment


                      #11
                      In the States that allow abortion all the way up to the point of labor, African American abortions occur by percentage more often than any other baby ethnicity.

                      Similarly, African American mothers receive less breast feeding counseling than any other group.

                      I am always very skeptical regarding claims of systemic racism, as the kunckle heads disrespect the concept through spurious overuse.

                      But on the topic of black mothers, and black babies in hospital environments, you betcha, still exists.

                      Black mothers do not get the allocation of counseling services other mothers in the United States get.

                      And their babies are referred more often to abortion than adoption counseling,

                      and more often referred to formula, rather than the La Leche League.

                      That rare unicorn, often claimed erroneously, but here, really makes appearance, systemic racism.
                      Last edited by Dr. Gonzo; 2/04/2019 11:51pm, .

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Women shouldn't be forced to carry kids with shit like harlequin ichthyosis or trisomy 13/18 to term and forcing them to do so is an exercise in cruelty.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          I'm pro condom wearing.
                          "BJJ!!! Guard can't protect you from collapsing gym roof, tough guy!" - W. Rabbit

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Sovvolf View Post
                            I'm pro condom wearing.
                            It takes less effort than a coat hanger, that's for sure.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Sovvolf View Post
                              I'm pro condom wearing.
                              A male contraceptive pill that is priced sufficiently that it is easily available to everyone on the planet of all age groups would solve a significant amount of the problem.

                              Condoms are horrible, bearable but horrible, they remove the icing from the cake to the point that the fear of AIDs and unwanted children is still not enough of an incentive for vast amounts of idiots across the planet to use them despite being free to many.
                              King without a crown

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