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The American Psychological Association Declares "Traditional Masculinity" Harmful

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    The American Psychological Association Declares "Traditional Masculinity" Harmful

    If you haven't noticed lately I've been less invested in the self-defense and martial arts areas of what we do, and much more invested in the culture war, particularly where ideology is used to supersede science. This position always makes a certain segment of people uncomfortable, because there are legitimate historical examples of people misusing early science to justify atrocities.

    But these people fail to take into account that those attrocities were explicitly driven by ideology over facts as well; they just had faint veneer of actual science to appropriate credibility among a scientifically-illiterate public.

    Anyway, I'm not writing an article here, just presenting a topic for discussion.

    So if you follow me on Twitter you'll know I'm ankle-deep in some fields of academic psych. The APA last week released new recommendations on addressing what it feels is the problem of "Traditional Masculinity". The backlash was, understandably, harsh. But as with any backlash, just like with any large gathering of angry people yelling, all nuance is lost and cooler heads are drowned out by the screaming of the most enranged.

    I'll save you from reading the entire thing (here), but here's their own quick take on it:



    What are your thoughts? Is it "toxic" to be masculine? Are the traits needed by men like these to survive, no longer compatible with the modern world?


    #2
    And into the middle of this, Gillette released this ad:

    Comment


      #3
      Being an asshole is toxic. Asshole comes in all variety of humans, regardless off arrangement of chromosomes.

      What is the difference between "mean girl" behavior and "toxic masculinity" ?
      Falling for Judo since 1980

      "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

      "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

      "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

      Comment


        #4
        I believe a lot of men won't get past the title before complaining in the comments section, so I'll probably avoid the discussion at the normal places (Facebook etc).

        This is one of those topics that will likely not get to the "what can we do about it?" stage, since the discussion will be centered on if the premise is true at all, like global warming.

        Does traditional masculinity have toxic properties? Sure, but you'd have to define traditional. There's a ton of old black and white photos of straight men holding hands and being very close, and it was the generation of men after them who'd call them nancys and homos. Which group do we call "traditional"?

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Phrost View Post
          If you haven't noticed lately I've been less invested in the self-defense and martial arts areas of what we do, and much more invested in the culture war, particularly where ideology is used to supersede science. This position always makes a certain segment of people uncomfortable, because there are legitimate historical examples of people misusing early science to justify atrocities.

          But these people fail to take into account that those attrocities were explicitly driven by ideology over facts as well; they faint veneer of actual science to appropriate credibility among a scientifically-illiterate public.

          Anyway, I'm not writing an article here, just presenting a topic for discussion.

          So if you follow me on Twitter you'll know I'm ankle-deep in some fields of academic psych. The APA last week released new recommendations on addressing what it feels is the problem of "Traditional Masculinity". The backlash was, understandably, harsh. But as with any backlash, just like with any large gathering of angry people yelling, all nuance is lost and cooler heads are drowned out by the screaming of the most enranged.

          I'll save you from reading the entire thing (here), but here's their own quick take on it:



          What are your thoughts? Is it "toxic" to be masculine? Are the traits needed by men like these to survive, no longer compatible with the modern world?

          Psychology as a discipline, and the papers in psychology research journals,

          more often than not,

          are pseudo-scientific philosophy, rather than science.

          And there are mutable fashion trends within it.

          Comment


            #6
            Oh you know me Phrost. I've been arguing about this bullshit term called "Toxic Masculinity" for awhile now. I have since refined my arguments since the last time we've had this conversation. I do believe there's this movement by certain fringes to sterilize what it is to be masculine. My daughter is in high school right now in California and it's hilarious on how they're trying to indoctrinate the kids in school. My daughter just did a report on "anit-feminism". I asked her why she chose the topic. She said just to piss everybody off.

            Comment


              #7
              Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) approves of this thread.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Permalost View Post
                I believe a lot of men won't get past the title before complaining in the comments section, so I'll probably avoid the discussion at the normal places (Facebook etc).
                Dude. I've been straight-up trolling the people who follow Bullshido on Facebook only and don't post on the forums, for a while now. The comments over there are a whole new form of cancer.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Is masculinity harmful or has technology so badly changed the way we live that we no longer function as we evolved to function?

                  Evolution only provides for the survival of the species in it's natural environment. So what the fuck is natural about our present day environment?

                  How far did you range from your dwelling to find fresh water? How many predators did you kill with your own two hands? When was the last time you formed up a posse to go stab a grizzly bear to death or spend 10 hours to find enough legumes and berries to eat? When was the last time you dispensed justice from the point of a spear or the weight of a club?

                  We do not live as we evolved to live. We wear shoes scientifically designed to protect our feet from the environment. We wash our hands with hydrogen peroxide suspensions called soap. We have police, cell phones, ambulances, a giant box of every kind of medicine to treat lethal things that we don't even worry about anymore. We didn't even have hand writing until thousands of years after we had evolved to a creature that is biologically identical to the one that we are today.

                  We are going to fuck things up and kill each other needlessly because 10,000 years ago that meant our genes were the ones that got passed down. We all know that it's not natural to have an animal in a cage and then we build them for ourselves and wonder why some of us go fucking nuts.
                  "Pave the way for the little guy, Caligula!" Harry Solomon, September 28, 1999

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I'm right where Omega is with blame shifting. If we are going down this road where do we start and stop? Is it masculinity that is at fault or the society which shapes and defines it? That's why I said, on the Facebook page, define it. Masculinity is not bullying, groping, sexual harassment, sexist comments, abuse or rape. I was never taught to be tough or masculine I have to engage in at least some of those acts to be a "man."

                    What I find interesting is context and semantics. It is okay that I raised my daughters to go for it, go get it, be aggressive and go after what you want.

                    When I tell people I raised my sons with the same attributes, it is now "toxic masculinity" and leads them to being possible bullies, abusers and rapists.
                    Last edited by It is Fake; 1/15/2019 1:28pm, .

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Phrost View Post
                      I'll save you from reading the entire thing (here), but here's their own quick take on it:



                      What are your thoughts? Is it "toxic" to be masculine? Are the traits needed by men like these to survive, no longer compatible with the modern world?

                      Wow, that tweet of theirs is sensationalist compared to the article/paper.

                      I would be interesting to see if they have a more fleshed out version of that paper. As it stands that is a stub at best, and it makes some fairly sweeping generalizations. For instance:
                      Western culture defines specific characteristics to fit the patriarchal ideal masculine construct.
                      That statement is parochial at best and hedges more toward ethnocentric in a very bad way. I'm not sure that you could say all of the United States has one predominant masculine culture, despite the cultural homogany that has occurred in the last 70years in the US. Let alone all of what is anthropologically known as Western Civilization. While it makes some good points. Those are far overshadowed by the sloppiness in presenting the material and the generalizations.

                      Originally posted by Permalost View Post
                      I believe a lot of men won't get past the title before complaining in the comments section, so I'll probably avoid the discussion at the normal places (Facebook etc).

                      This is one of those topics that will likely not get to the "what can we do about it?" stage, since the discussion will be centered on if the premise is true at all, like global warming.

                      Does traditional masculinity have toxic properties? Sure, but you'd have to define traditional. There's a ton of old black and white photos of straight men holding hands and being very close, and it was the generation of men after them who'd call them nancys and homos. Which group do we call "traditional"?
                      You pretty much hit the nail on the head, and expose one of the weaknesses of the above cited article. Of course there will be backlash, they used a sensationalist tactics and sloppy presentation to try to get their ideas across. It smacks of pop-psychology. For their argument to be absolutely valid they would have to show that there is a long history of defining masculinity a certain way, and that it isn't just an aberration.

                      Personally I believe much of their problem is with what I have heard better termed cartoonish masculinity which I believe was an aberration that really came into its own in the 60's-80's. Maybe it started a bit earlier than that but I think that is really when it got its kick.


                      Originally posted by WFMurphyPhD View Post
                      Psychology as a discipline, and the papers in psychology research journals,

                      more often than not,

                      are pseudo-scientific philosophy, rather than science.

                      And there are mutable fashion trends within it.
                      I think Bill over exaggerates the frequency a bit, but he is not at all wrong. Look at the criticisms of the DSM-5 and you will find even Psychologists saying it, about the book they are forced to use to diagnose patients no less.
                      Don't rely on theory if your life is at stake.

                      "But now that you've anointed him as truthsayer, you'll be complicit with what happens when the next Jew comes here and is lambasted by an ultrasecular Rabbi" -W.Rabbit/Pship/Emily Dickinson/Earth Dragon/Self Proclaimed Editor Extraordinaire

                      Comment


                        #12
                        The APA says traditional masculinity is defined by “stoicism, competitiveness, dominance and aggression.”

                        And this is toxic because it "has been shown to limit males’ psychological development, constrain their behavior, result in gender role strain and gender role conflict and negatively influence mental health and physical health.”"

                        "The association blames this masculinity for the fact that 90 percent of homicides in the US are committed by men, and for the fact that men are over three times more likely to die from suicide than women. Boys are also far more likely to be diagnosed with ADHD than girls, and suffer harsher punishments for misbehaving in school."

                        So what are we trying to fix?
                        Combatives training log.

                        Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

                        Drum thread

                        Pavel Tsatsouline: kettlebell workouts give you “cardio without the dishonour of aerobics”.

                        "Disliking someone is not evidence of wrongdoing or malfeasance or even bias." --Dung Beatles

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Along with the lack of definition, the criticism of ‘toxic masculinity’ seems to create a false dichotomy with some people where they believe that any form of masculinity is bad.

                          It feels like more social justice warriors looking for something new to be offended by and then the rest of the world seems to take it seriously.
                          Ne Obliviscaris

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Here's another thing to look at. When we talk about Masculine and Feminine are we talking about male or female respectively? Technically the answer should be no but ironically we are talking about behavior that is naturally attributed to being male and female. So if we were to believe this idea of Toxic Masculinity then we should easily be able to apply those behaviors to both men and women as long as they exhibit those behaviors. Additionally can we say that there is such a thing called Toxic Femininity such as seen in Munchausen syndrome by proxy?

                            In my research into the origins of the term Toxic Masculinity I found that the likeliest origin of the term actually came from the "Men's right movement" when describing the survival behavior that prisoners adopt while incarcerated: Don't show weakness, meet force with force, don't show emotion as it is a sign of weakness, etc. All of which is simply an implementation of hyper masculine behavior.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Diesel_tke View Post
                              The APA says traditional masculinity is defined by “stoicism, competitiveness, dominance and aggression.”

                              And this is toxic because it "has been shown to limit males’ psychological development, constrain their behavior, result in gender role strain and gender role conflict and negatively influence mental health and physical health.”"

                              "The association blames this masculinity for the fact that 90 percent of homicides in the US are committed by men, and for the fact that men are over three times more likely to die from suicide than women. Boys are also far more likely to be diagnosed with ADHD than girls, and suffer harsher punishments for misbehaving in school."

                              So what are we trying to fix?
                              The APA, struggling to deal with the failure of any single psychology approach to be duplicatibly better than placebo

                              in addressing the problems of people committing homicides or preventing suicides,

                              has decided to blame men and being male for their failures.

                              Because that is the popular thing to do, because you know, the Patriarchy and all that.

                              People fear what they cannot control, and they would rather geld and brainwash males into thinking that is a good idea rather than deal with the fact that their discipline is basically palm reading and telling horoscopes.

                              Comment

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