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    "He didn't even respect the flag" - what does this mean?

    So I found a very interesting family exchange in an article on Politico: https://www.politico.com/magazine/st...n-women-220739


    The exchange is surreal, like the one from Hemmingway's Hills Like White Elephants.

    In any case, if the meaning of what was said could be understood, so perhaps too could US politics.

    What was meant when the one person claimed Obama didn't respect the flag? Note the disagreement on the subject within the same family. Also, the unwillingness to debate or introspect, so unlike on this forum. Hopefully someone here can explain.

    #2
    Hills Like White Elephants, in case someone hasn't read it: https://genius.com/Ernest-hemingway-...ants-annotated

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by Wounded Ronin View Post
      So I found a very interesting family exchange in an article on Politico: https://www.politico.com/magazine/st...n-women-220739




      The exchange is surreal, like the one from Hemmingway's Hills Like White Elephants.

      In any case, if the meaning of what was said could be understood, so perhaps too could US politics.

      What was meant when the one person claimed Obama didn't respect the flag? Note the disagreement on the subject within the same family. Also, the unwillingness to debate or introspect, so unlike on this forum. Hopefully someone here can explain.
      You will find that there are all sorts of people who make no sense, have little in the way of critical thinking ability, are tribal/family oriented to the point of committing felonies, etc. And believe the wildest conspiracy theories because of the above, plus confirmation bias.

      Regardless, it doesn't disqualify one from voting.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Wounded Ronin View Post
        So I found a very interesting family exchange in an article on Politico: https://www.politico.com/magazine/st...n-women-220739




        The exchange is surreal, like the one from Hemmingway's Hills Like White Elephants.

        In any case, if the meaning of what was said could be understood, so perhaps too could US politics.

        What was meant when the one person claimed Obama didn't respect the flag? Note the disagreement on the subject within the same family. Also, the unwillingness to debate or introspect, so unlike on this forum. Hopefully someone here can explain.
        I've got a friend who is from a place called Jay Florida. It's a little Podunk town on the Florida-Alabama line. As of 2004 the population was 650. The racial makeup of the town was 97.58% White, 0.35% African American, 1.21% Native American, 0.17% Asian, and 0.69% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 1.90% of the population.

        He has two sons. One of them turned 18 and joined the Navy. He traveled the world, went to war, met different people including his girlfriend who is from California. When he got out of the Navy he decided to move near her and take some college classes.

        The other day my friend (the dad) posted a plea on facebook. He said, someone please help me! My son has been brainwashed by these damn liberals in commie-fornia. I tried to have a conversation about how good Trump is doing and he started saying some of the most crazy liberal stuff that it almost brought me to tears. I couldn't believe the stuff he was saying. He was making no since to me. I don't know where I went wrong as a father. I feel like I have lost my son. By the end of the conversation he was calling me ignorant and says he will never talk to me again. Someone please tell me what to do. I don't want to lose my son.

        It was really sad to see. Mainly because the son was probably correct in most of the stuff he was saying, and my friend does take a pretty ignorant stance on stuff. But it's his nature and how he came up. He's and old school convict guard. Fought in the Tuff man competitions. Yoshukai Karate black belt. Trains in BJJ and competes. I've been in the trenches with him many times. Definitely a guy you want watching your back. But his politics and world views are limited to Jay Florida, high school education, and drinking at the river.

        It's no wonder that some families just chose to not discuss politics at all. In my family, it comes to blows sometimes. But if you saw my family, you would understand. We have lots of law enforcement, military, special forces, athletes, and inmates. Reunions are fun.

        Comment


          #5
          So is this mainly about bumkin rednecks being mentally retarded??

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Bneterasedmynam View Post
            So is this mainly about bumkin rednecks being mentally retarded??
            It's not limited to "bumkin" rednecks at all.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Diesel_tke View Post
              I've got a friend who is from a place called Jay Florida. It's a little Podunk town on the Florida-Alabama line. As of 2004 the population was 650. The racial makeup of the town was 97.58% White, 0.35% African American, 1.21% Native American, 0.17% Asian, and 0.69% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 1.90% of the population.

              He has two sons. One of them turned 18 and joined the Navy. He traveled the world, went to war, met different people including his girlfriend who is from California. When he got out of the Navy he decided to move near her and take some college classes.

              The other day my friend (the dad) posted a plea on facebook. He said, someone please help me! My son has been brainwashed by these damn liberals in commie-fornia. I tried to have a conversation about how good Trump is doing and he started saying some of the most crazy liberal stuff that it almost brought me to tears. I couldn't believe the stuff he was saying. He was making no since to me. I don't know where I went wrong as a father. I feel like I have lost my son. By the end of the conversation he was calling me ignorant and says he will never talk to me again. Someone please tell me what to do. I don't want to lose my son.

              It was really sad to see. Mainly because the son was probably correct in most of the stuff he was saying, and my friend does take a pretty ignorant stance on stuff. But it's his nature and how he came up. He's and old school convict guard. Fought in the Tuff man competitions. Yoshukai Karate black belt. Trains in BJJ and competes. I've been in the trenches with him many times. Definitely a guy you want watching your back. But his politics and world views are limited to Jay Florida, high school education, and drinking at the river.

              It's no wonder that some families just chose to not discuss politics at all. In my family, it comes to blows sometimes. But if you saw my family, you would understand. We have lots of law enforcement, military, special forces, athletes, and inmates. Reunions are fun.
              Thanks for your incredible post.

              To the tell the truth it made me very, very sad. I think it affected my mood this morning.

              In the first place because a man feels like he is losing his son, but he can't see that it's just because of the arbitrary way that he thinks and if only he had more perspective he could simply drop that or suspend it for the purpose of entertaining "devil's advocate" positions. He himself is choosing to feel that something has been lost and sacrificed, and for what? Literally nothing.

              Secondly, because he feels that it's appropriate to post that on Facebook. Is there no one he could trust or reach out to in person? Did he think he'd remotely get good advice or meaningful discussion over facebook?

              Thirdly, and kind of going with the second point, you know that he will probably get terrible advice. I am sure he will get lots of Facebook commentators telling him how awful his son is now that he's a liberal, and he doesn't deserve to live in North America, and similarly hyperbolic things. Because people are nuts. They lack compassion and perspective. And who knows? Maybe thanks to his buying into wedge issue talking points he'll listen to them and disown his son, cut that tie forever. The idea of reaching out for help on Facebook seems like such a screamingly bad idea.


              What the man needs is for someone to explain to him how to suspend the axiomatic elements of his thinking and world view in order to be able to consider or explore foreign points of view in a neutral or uncommitted manner. Do you think that you'd be able to reach out and help him with that? Since he asked for help....



              This leads me to my next question. Is it even ethical for politicians to manipulate and rile "base voters"? If said voters demonstrably have no idea what they're talking about when it comes to national level issues, is it even ethical to sow a lot of strife, tear apart families and communities not to mention the nation as a whole, just to get them to cast a vote when they have no idea what the impacts and implications of that vote will be? It actually seems very predatory.

              Comment


                #8
                I was going to make a flippant comment about "ah yes, that old bastion of liberalism, the navy."
                Then I remembered that the Russian Navy was one of the crucial backers of the Bolsheviks in the Russian revolution, so.... yeah, kind of.
                I guess sailing around the world will do that to a person.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Wounded Ronin View Post
                  Thanks for your incredible post.

                  To the tell the truth it made me very, very sad. I think it affected my mood this morning.

                  In the first place because a man feels like he is losing his son, but he can't see that it's just because of the arbitrary way that he thinks and if only he had more perspective he could simply drop that or suspend it for the purpose of entertaining "devil's advocate" positions. He himself is choosing to feel that something has been lost and sacrificed, and for what? Literally nothing.

                  Secondly, because he feels that it's appropriate to post that on Facebook. Is there no one he could trust or reach out to in person? Did he think he'd remotely get good advice or meaningful discussion over facebook?

                  Thirdly, and kind of going with the second point, you know that he will probably get terrible advice. I am sure he will get lots of Facebook commentators telling him how awful his son is now that he's a liberal, and he doesn't deserve to live in North America, and similarly hyperbolic things. Because people are nuts. They lack compassion and perspective. And who knows? Maybe thanks to his buying into wedge issue talking points he'll listen to them and disown his son, cut that tie forever. The idea of reaching out for help on Facebook seems like such a screamingly bad idea.


                  What the man needs is for someone to explain to him how to suspend the axiomatic elements of his thinking and world view in order to be able to consider or explore foreign points of view in a neutral or uncommitted manner. Do you think that you'd be able to reach out and help him with that? Since he asked for help....



                  This leads me to my next question. Is it even ethical for politicians to manipulate and rile "base voters"? If said voters demonstrably have no idea what they're talking about when it comes to national level issues, is it even ethical to sow a lot of strife, tear apart families and communities not to mention the nation as a whole, just to get them to cast a vote when they have no idea what the impacts and implications of that vote will be? It actually seems very predatory.
                  Yeah, I did reach out to him. I have a really good relationship with him because I used to train him in BJJ in secret. Which is a funny glimpse into his world. So, he is a Karate Black belt and fought in the tough man competitions when it cam into town. He also fought in some NHB competitions actually at a bar that I used to bounce at. We were on the squad together and whenever we had squad training, you can imagine it is basically a room of muscled up testosterone. So eventually everyone bows ever one else up into fighting. So, he used to take on all comers. Well, they sent me off to the Gracie combatives training. Then the state sent me to advanced groundfighting school. Then I started competing and training other guys. So when we would fight at squad meetings all the sudden he was getting taken down and submitted. He called me at the house one day and wanted to train with me so that he could defend himself on the ground but he didn't want any of the young guys knowing about it.

                  But anyways, I did reach out to him and try to give him some more insight about it. I think I calmed him down. I also got him to call his son and apologize. Right now I think they are on a no politics basis but I'm working on him to open his mind a little bit. You don't know how hard that is.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Diesel_tke View Post
                    Yeah, I did reach out to him. I have a really good relationship with him because I used to train him in BJJ in secret. Which is a funny glimpse into his world. So, he is a Karate Black belt and fought in the tough man competitions when it cam into town. He also fought in some NHB competitions actually at a bar that I used to bounce at. We were on the squad together and whenever we had squad training, you can imagine it is basically a room of muscled up testosterone. So eventually everyone bows ever one else up into fighting. So, he used to take on all comers. Well, they sent me off to the Gracie combatives training. Then the state sent me to advanced groundfighting school. Then I started competing and training other guys. So when we would fight at squad meetings all the sudden he was getting taken down and submitted. He called me at the house one day and wanted to train with me so that he could defend himself on the ground but he didn't want any of the young guys knowing about it.

                    But anyways, I did reach out to him and try to give him some more insight about it. I think I calmed him down. I also got him to call his son and apologize. Right now I think they are on a no politics basis but I'm working on him to open his mind a little bit. You don't know how hard that is.
                    I think he's in good hands and I'm glad you're there for him.


                    And you're right, I don't think I know how hard it is. Since I was in high school I'd been doing debate type activities that by their nature require you to argue for positions you might not normally support or to play devil's advocate. More than that you're trying to defeat the other guy and win the contest so there's nothing halfassed about it when you do these things.

                    So, I can only imagine the mental framework when you're not able or not willing to do this. Perhaps it actually feels uncomfortable to try and play devil's advocate in a serious way.



                    Thanks for taking the time and energy to try and bring people together in a meaningful way and preserve something that shouldn't have been ripped apart in the first place. This is one way that a person can really make a difference and I wish more would spend their energy in this way.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Wounded Ronin View Post
                      It actually seems very predatory.
                      Well, this is what the system is about since ever.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Wounded Ronin View Post
                        Thanks for your incredible post.

                        To the tell the truth it made me very, very sad. I think it affected my mood this morning.

                        In the first place because a man feels like he is losing his son, but he can't see that it's just because of the arbitrary way that he thinks and if only he had more perspective he could simply drop that or suspend it for the purpose of entertaining "devil's advocate" positions. He himself is choosing to feel that something has been lost and sacrificed, and for what? Literally nothing.

                        Secondly, because he feels that it's appropriate to post that on Facebook. Is there no one he could trust or reach out to in person? Did he think he'd remotely get good advice or meaningful discussion over facebook?

                        Thirdly, and kind of going with the second point, you know that he will probably get terrible advice. I am sure he will get lots of Facebook commentators telling him how awful his son is now that he's a liberal, and he doesn't deserve to live in North America, and similarly hyperbolic things. Because people are nuts. They lack compassion and perspective. And who knows? Maybe thanks to his buying into wedge issue talking points he'll listen to them and disown his son, cut that tie forever. The idea of reaching out for help on Facebook seems like such a screamingly bad idea.


                        What the man needs is for someone to explain to him how to suspend the axiomatic elements of his thinking and world view in order to be able to consider or explore foreign points of view in a neutral or uncommitted manner. Do you think that you'd be able to reach out and help him with that? Since he asked for help....



                        This leads me to my next question. Is it even ethical for politicians to manipulate and rile "base voters"? If said voters demonstrably have no idea what they're talking about when it comes to national level issues, is it even ethical to sow a lot of strife, tear apart families and communities not to mention the nation as a whole, just to get them to cast a vote when they have no idea what the impacts and implications of that vote will be? It actually seems very predatory.
                        Paternalism is a thing, Wounded Ronin...

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by BKR View Post
                          Paternalism is a thing, Wounded Ronin...
                          So is modern disengagement, distraction, and community disintegration. Is paternalism the worst thing that a person could accidentally fall into?

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Wounded Ronin View Post
                            So is modern disengagement, distraction, and community disintegration. Is paternalism the worst thing that a person could accidentally fall into?
                            It's not a matter of falling into it it's a matter of having that attitude towards people.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Wounded Ronin View Post
                              I think he's in good hands and I'm glad you're there for him.


                              And you're right, I don't think I know how hard it is. Since I was in high school I'd been doing debate type activities that by their nature require you to argue for positions you might not normally support or to play devil's advocate. More than that you're trying to defeat the other guy and win the contest so there's nothing halfassed about it when you do these things.

                              So, I can only imagine the mental framework when you're not able or not willing to do this. Perhaps it actually feels uncomfortable to try and play devil's advocate in a serious way.



                              Thanks for taking the time and energy to try and bring people together in a meaningful way and preserve something that shouldn't have been ripped apart in the first place. This is one way that a person can really make a difference and I wish more would spend their energy in this way.
                              When I first started in law enforcement, I started in juvenile justice then went into big boy prison. I always considered myself an undercover smart guy. I got a heads up from one of my Uncles who was a classification supervisor. He had been on both sides (admin and on the compound) and clued me in on the good old boy system. So when I went in I didn't tell anyone about my college degree. I played dumb. I often heard people say stuff like "I got my education at the school of hard knocks". So, instead I played up the dumb jock role. Which was easy, because I played Rugby in college, bounced, and fought in NHB competitions. One time I was working in confinement (I took extra credit and had classes in "Discipline and Special Confinement Techniques" for extra pay), and I was reading a book while waiting for the food cart. A Sergeant walked in and saw me and said, "Hey, I didn't know that you knew how to read". I'm actually an avid reader. :) I was on the RRT, CERT, Cell extraction team, DT instructor, played on all the intramural teams, everything.

                              So from that standpoint, after years of getting in the club, I kind of started to plant seeds of reality to people. I think I made a dent into the ignorance, but you never know.

                              List all of the most derogatory, racist, ignorant things you have ever heard and I guarantee I heard those every day. Coming from a pretty diverse, multi cultural family, it was interesting to say the least.

                              Comment

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