Red Herring of Crime Rate Statistics

[Mister]

Like I've said, had that video come out at the time it was taken, the judge likely would have been charged.

That is not discipline, that is a savage, angry, expletive-ridden assault.

Yes the anger part is important because it shows the judge is not emotionally in control of himself, which combined with a weapon in hand makes him dangerous to a child. Remember, trying to beat discipline into a child while foaming at the mouth is not sending the right signal. It means you're probably way more undisciplined.

No, I don't expect the average Egyptian will view this as particularly bad seeing as how they live in the Arab world where daily violence is more common. In the US, we give children and women more rights than they have in the Arab world, and one of those rights it not to be beaten by the man of the house at whim.

There is a lot of commentary on Fox News supporting the beating solely because she was "committing a federal crime" (she wasn't) by downloading mp3s.

In that case, line up every person from the age of 13-31 because many of them are equally guilty.

Whippings and gulags for everybody!

I don't know, I've never heard in my country of someone getting drunk and beating his kids and wife (most of us don't drink), I've never heard of an extreme case of domestic violence either, I know men who beat their wives and kids but very lightly, they still love them and even when angry they would not dare to cause them permanent damage.

As far as violence goes...That's a difficult thing to gauge accurately. I hear about some crimes in America that are pretty disturbing. While most crimes that I hear about in this country are petty theft and political corruption.

Lately due to political instability and the lack of police the crime rates have gone way up but I think it is unfair to take that into account seeing as before that crime rates were one of the lowest in the world in Egypt.

The latter is not an assumption I can provide proof if you want.

In short, violence and crime rate is normally less in my country than in yours. Forget for a second about the guy with the beard who blows himself up in a hotel and thinks America is the enemy of god, most of us are regular, shirt-wearing folks whom drive to work everyday and watch television before sleep.

[W. Rabbit]

Red Herring of Crime Rate Statistics

In short, violence and crime rate is normally less in my country than in yours.

Hold on.

Criminology 101: violence and crime rate are not remotely the same thing, because not all violence is reported.

Crime rate is the rate of reported crimes.

The actual rate of violence depends on many factors, one of the biggest is socioeconomic. Violence is higher in poor, low/middle class areas and societies that accept violence (e.g. against Islamic women in some countries) vs. societies that do not.

Likewise, crime rates are higher when reporting is more common, for instance, in countries with appropriate law enforcement. Crime rates in many Arab countries are extremely low simply because there is no law enforcement function there to record and/or process them.

In countries where honor killing and wife beatings are A-OK, the effective crime rate for those according to officials would be 0.

I've seen it justified by imams many times. It's not a crime if the Quran says it's not.

I'm not equating a progressive nation like Egypt with, say Afghanistan, but as seen during the Arab Spring uprising...the Egyptian government is no stranger to violent police crackdowns.

Note that the crime rate of violent police crackdowns is also effectively 0, according to local authorities.

[Mister]

Hold on.

Criminology 101: violence and crime rate are not remotely the same thing, because not all violence is reported.

Crime rate is the rate of reported crimes.

The actual rate of violence depends on many factors, one of the biggest is socioeconomic. Violence is higher in poor, low/middle class areas and societies that accept violence (e.g. against Islamic women in some countries) vs. societies that do not.

Likewise, crime rates are higher when reporting is more common, for instance, in countries with appropriate law enforcement. Crime rates in many Arab countries are extremely low simply because there is no law enforcement function there to record and/or process them.

In countries where honor killing and wife beatings are A-OK, the effective crime rate for those according to officials would be 0.

I've seen it justified by imams many times. It's not a crime if the Quran says it's not.

I'm not equating a progressive nation like Egypt with, say Afghanistan, but as seen during the Arab Spring uprising...the Egyptian government is no stranger to violent police crackdowns.

Note that the crime rate of violent police crackdowns is also effectively 0, according to local authorities.

So what you're saying is...

Crime rate is not an effective way to measure violence.

Okay, I'll play along, what do you base your assumption that violence is higher in the "Arab world" (Egypt in Particular) than in your country then? And just to make sure I am not twisting your words or changing what you said I will quote you where you said that.

No, I don't expect the average Egyptian will view this as particularly bad seeing as how they live in the Arab world where daily violence is more common. In the US, we give children and women more rights than they have in the Arab world, and one of those rights it not to be beaten by the man of the house at whim.

As I understand it many crimes in America (specially sexual assault) go unreported as well. I can provide proof for this. (written by Americans)

According to you: The beating the girl in the video received was a crime, that wasn't reported too.

There is some irony in this.

Also the way you make the "Arab world" sound like a jungle is well...

I can't find the word for it.

[W. Rabbit]

So what you're saying is...
Crime rate is not an effective way to measure violence.

They are not proportional. The crime rate can be low or high regardless of the actual rate of violence in a society, which depends on what constitutes a crime, and what kinds of violent activity are considered within the law vs. not, eg. belting a child vs. cutting a child. The rates of reporting are important, and yes, the US has a combined effort across all 50 states to improve that metric.

Okay, I'll play along, what do you base your assumption that violence is higher in the "Arab world" (Egypt in Particular) than in your country then? And just to make sure I am not twisting your words or changing what you said I will quote you where you said that.

Right now in certain Middle Eastern and African countries it is perfectly acceptable to murder a woman with stones in broad daylight.

There are currently a large number of violent uprisings occurring in multiple Arab nations.

These are not assumptions, they are on the news as I write this.

See I didn't even have to bring up terrorism.

Also the way you make the "Arab world" sound like a jungle is well...

I can't find the word for it.

The word is desert.

[Mister]

They are not proportional. The crime rate can be low or high regardless of the actual rate of violence in a society, which depends on what constitutes a crime, and what kinds of violent activity are considered within the law vs. not, eg. belting a child vs. cutting a child. The rates of reporting are important, and yes, the US has a combined effort across all 50 states to improve that metric.



Right now in certain Middle Eastern and African countries it is perfectly acceptable to murder a woman with stones in broad daylight.

There are currently a large number of violent uprisings occurring in multiple Arab nations.

These are not assumptions, they are on the news as I write this.

See I didn't even have to bring up terrorism.



The word is desert.

I don't know where you bring this shit from.

I will tell you that I've lived in Egypt my entire life, and Saudi Arabia some of my life and trust me when I tell you that it is not perfectly acceptable to murder ANYBODY with ANYTHING in ANY TIME of the day...

Forget about your stereotypes for a second and you'll realize these are all assumptions.

If by violent uprising in many Arab countries you mean revolutions and overthrowing corrupt presidents I will say it again, this is not the normal situation, the normal situation is just peachy, you make it sound like we get up and beat each other in the morning.

We are just regular, shirt wearing folks. What reaches you is the extreme, but they never give you a story about a guy who went to work in the morning, or a guy whos daughter got married, or a guy who ate biscuits in the morning with his tea...

On this particular subject I have a comedy that I enjoyed.

I hope you enjoy it too, please note this is not proof of anything it's just funny and I'm sharing it.

The fact that you've heard about a couple of situations on the news doesn't mean those situations are the acceptable standard.

There is police and there is civil law we don't live as a jungle or as you so wittily put it, desert.

[It is Fake]

As I understand it many crimes in America (specially sexual assault) go unreported as well. I can provide proof for this. (written by Americans)

This is going to be semantics because you missed his point.
Under reported is not the same as violence being accepted and given a zero in the crime rate statistics. That's the point he is raising. To say that Egypt doesn't engage in a violent crime, when it obviously does, and then say the country's crime rate is better or more accurate is disingenuous.

US crime stats culled:
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=110559

[Mister]

This is going to be semantics because you missed his point.
Under reported is not the same as violence being accepted and given a zero in the crime rate statistics. That's the point he is raising. To say that Egypt doesn't engage in a violent crime, when it obviously does, and then say the country's crime rate is better or more accurate is disingenuous.

I was pointing out that crimes go unreported everywhere not just in the "Arab world" to reply to his assumption that many violent crimes go unreported therefore crime is not a valid measure of violence.

Also I never said that Egypt doesn't engage in violent crime (there's violent crime everywhere) I said that the rate of crime is lower in Egypt than in the USA.

We have civil law and until lately we had police, until lately it was perfectly safe for a girl to walk home at night after midnight (although most families have curfew for girls, it is tradition) no crime is "accepted, no crime is "okay". We're a religious people (mostly) and violent crime goes against that tradition.

There's some fighting on the street that goes unreported but usually no damage is done and they end up yelling at each other.

There's phone, wallet and purse snatching and car stealing.

There's no murder in broad daylight that was dismissed as okay or acceptable (that I have seen or heard of or even read about).

There was police brutality of course, but maybe that is what kept the crime rate so low, the police ruled the street with an iron fist. Any Egyptian will confirm that. The police had power, too much power.

Domestic discipline/violence (whatever you wanna call it) is alright nobody can talk shit to you about physically disciplining your kids, but most people will talk shit to you if you do the same to your wife.

Drinking related accidents and violence are rare because most of us don't drink. (Religion makes it a socially frowned upon activity, you can be fined or put in jail if you do it in a public place)

Owning a gun in Egypt (until recently) was a rare privilege, people usually fight man to man (or men to men), with bare hands, sticks and belts (anything they can find) and in extreme cases, pocket knives, tasers and swords.

Rapes are rare not because they are not reported, but because if you rape someone's daughter, mother or sister you are a dead man, and every man knows that.

And women are not killed with stones when raped.

I don't even understand where this absurd notion comes from.

That is not to say there is no violence, but it's really not nearly as bad as you think. If we didn't have a political uprise and prisons weren't being destroyed, weapons weren't being stolen from weapon shops and inmates (some on death row) weren't running away I would invite you to live in Egypt as a perfectly safe place, I live in a low middle class area and I have never seen any forms of extreme violence (until lately).

I think I just about covered all types of violence, if I missed something, do tell.

Also, I thought you were gonna leave me alone. Couldn't stay away?

[It is Fake]

Also, I thought you were gonna leave me alone.

Yep.

Couldn't stay away?

Staff tag says no when there is a derail.
I had to cull your and rabbits semantic based derail from the thread. Under reported, not reported vs. not even considered a crime due to your beliefs is not the same.

Keep typing and continue to miss his point. Keep it here or infractions for both of you are incoming.

[W. Rabbit]

I don't know where you bring this shit from.

I will tell you that I've lived in Egypt my entire life, and Saudi Arabia some of my life and trust me when I tell you that it is not perfectly acceptable to murder ANYBODY with ANYTHING in ANY TIME of the day...[/video]

I gather data from many sources, no not just the evening news. For instance I have been intimately following Wael Ghonim for years, before his kidnapping and freedom stirred Egypt's recent popular uprisings.

Your anecdotal experiences in certain modernized Middle Eastern areas do not make the rest of the lawlessness in that region go away. In Afghanistan you still have Taliban throwing acid in the face of women attending schools. You still have honor killings going on. If you're not aware that stoning is perfectly legal in several Arab countries, go find out which.

And once again you're sitting there from your throne at the top of the progressive Arab world, hopelessly defending the vast majority of yes, lawless desert.

[Mister]

I gather data from many sources, no not just the evening news. For instance I have been intimately following Wael Ghonim for years, before his kidnapping and freedom stirred Egypt's recent popular uprisings.

Your anecdotal experiences in certain modernized Middle Eastern areas do not make the rest of the lawlessness in that region go away. In Afghanistan you still have Taliban throwing acid in the face of women attending schools. You still have honor killings going on. If you're not away that stoning is perfectly legal in several Arab countries, go find out which.

And once again you're sitting there from your throne at the top of the progressive Arab world, hopelessly defending the vast majority of yes, lawless desert.

You said earlier that you don't expect someone from Egypt to understand how bad the beating is. Because violence in the "Arab world" (which includes Egypt) is high.

My reply to that was that neither Egypt had violence (using crime rates as an indicator, which you called inaccurate) nor is this considered violence there.

I then told you that Egypt wasn't all that bad until recently. All of which you chose to ignore.

All the types of violence I stated earlier are not considered okay or acceptable EXCEPT for physically disciplining a child, in Egypt.

The top of the progressive Arab world? I've never seen such a throne with poor such healthcare and 200 dollars as average income. Where I work I got paid 100 dollars a month for working a full time job 9 hours a day, cut it out. You know what those 600 Egyptian Pounds would buy? 60 one person meals of average price.

And for your information, Afghanistan and the Taliban within aren't Arabs. Why are you using them as an example of the "Arab world"?

The "Arab world" only stretches from Morocco and Algeria, to Iraq. Anything beyond is Iran and Afghanistan. Whom are not Arabs, and whom speak Iranian (Persian).

Which is it you're talking about, the Middle East? Or the "Arab world"?

[Mister]

Yep.

Staff tag says no when there is a derail.
I had to cull your and rabbits semantic based derail from the thread. Under reported, not reported vs. not even considered a crime due to your beliefs is not the same.

Keep typing and continue to miss his point. Keep it her or infractions for both of you are incoming.

Sorry about the derail. I didn't realize it was a problem but one thing led to another and I didn't know where else to post.

I will keep it here surely.

At this point I have forgotten what the point was.

[W. Rabbit]

You said earlier that you don't expect someone from Egypt to understand how bad the beating is. Because violence in the "Arab world" (which includes Egypt) is high.

Wrong. Go re-read what I said. I said I wouldn't expect the average Egyptian to view it as particularly bad. I didn't say they wouldn't understand. I was, in fact, merely repeating your own statement from earlier.

This makes your subsequent statement irrelevant.

My reply to that was that neither Egypt had violence (using crime rates as an indicator, which you called inaccurate) nor is this considered violence there.

I then told you that Egypt wasn't all that bad until recently. All of which you chose to ignore.

Ignore how, by pointing out thrice now that Egypt is a more progressive Arab nation and that I'm referring to the entire Middle East in general.

All that bad until recently...are you kidding me?

Do you know who this man is?

The top of the progressive Arab world? I've never seen such a throne with poor such healthcare and 200 dollars as average income.

Then there is the middle and bottom of the Arab world, the one with all the unreported societal violence.

And for your information, Afghanistan and the Taliban within aren't Arabs. Why are you using them as an example of the "Arab world"?

The "Arab world" only stretches from Morocco and Algeria, to Iraq. Anything beyond is Iran and Afghanistan. Whom are not Arabs, and whom speak Iranian.

Which is it you're talking about, the Middle East? Or the "Arab world"?

Don't bother with factbook trickery. Obviously by "Arab World" I mean the Islamic, i.e. Arab-influenced region including the Arab World Proper as well as the outer Arab-influenced regions. Arab Muslims brought Islam to Afghanistan.

Go ahead try to tell me Arabic language and religion are not engrained throughout Afghanistan or Iran....

Tired of this game. Goodbye.

[Mister]

Don't bother with factbook trickery. Obviously by "Arab World" I mean the Islamic, i.e. Arab-influenced region including the Arab World Proper as well as the outer Arab-influenced regions. Arab Muslims brought Islam to Afghanistan.

Obviously. I don't know how that escaped me. There is no distinction between Arabs and Islam, that's why there are Arab Christians and Jews.

Oh wait a minute...

The way you clump us all together like a bunch of animals is disgusting, we do NOT share values with these people, only the religion is shared but other than that there are so many differences in between. That region is war-torn and has been for a while, you can't compare it to the relatively peaceful nature of most Arab countries (excluding Iraq, and guess who fucked that up).

All that bad until recently...are you kidding me?

Do you know who this man is?

No, I have never learned my own country's history in school, please educate me with your Google and documentary movies.

By all that bad I meant VIOLENCE was not as bad until recently. Not the political situation. The political situation has always been bad, worse than just bad.

Go ahead try to tell me Arabic language and religion are not engrained throughout Afghanistan or Iran....

We do not share the same values, it is not in the religion to acid a woman's face. That is tradition not religion. It is not in the religion to cut out half a woman's vagina as circumcision or beat her with stones to death, but that is tradition.

Tired of this game. Goodbye.

Of course you are, Goodbye.

[W. Rabbit]

Enough with the straw men, one after another. This is why IIF culled this. Stop crying the "Stupid Westerner Islamic bias" card, you sound like a complete idiot.

We were talking about cultural violence and the family/village, something associated with both Islam and Christian fundamentalism for a couple millenia. You of course get defensive with your "waaaah but we're not all that way" attitude completely losing track of what we're discussing when you said:

At this point I have forgotten what the point was.

Funny you said "relatively peaceful nature of most Arab countries" and yet the region as a whole has seen more war in the last 1000 years than any on Earth.

So, your Egyptian rose colored glasses must be of the highest quality.

Yes tradition in those places = the law = not a crime = not reported. Thanks for nailing that down for me.

[Jazzman]

By all that bad I meant VIOLENCE was not as bad until recently. Not the political situation. The political situation has always been bad, worse than just bad.



We do not share the same values, it is not in the religion to acid a woman's face. That is tradition not religion. It is not in the religion to cut out half a woman's vagina as circumcision or beat her with stones to death, but that is tradition.



Of course you are, Goodbye.

Blah . blah , blah. Start a different thread so we don't derail this one
and we'll *DIRECTLY* address th Quoran and the Hadiths along with
the Bible and I'll highlight the inherent DIRECT similarities in violence.

IIF was correct , you like to play games based upon semantics. That
won't wash with *me* , you're much the same as a christofacist fundy
who says " it doesn't say in the Bible to burn witches " , all the while
smugly ignoring what the actual text *does* say.

Bring your bale of straw to another and build that scarecrow , I'll
burn it down for you.