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    #61
    Originally posted by battlefields View Post
    In Australia we call these events "weekdays".

    You fucking whingers.
    Yes we've all seen Mad Max a very moving documentary of the day to day lives of Australians.

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      #62
      Originally posted by HereBeADragon View Post
      Well gray water is pretty much a no no in all of California as far as I know so that would have to be on the sly. I'm not sure about the codes for cisterns but they are legal as are wells around here. Humanure is iffy. I think its one of those things where you just don't mention it ;) I live in a semi-rural area and its a lot easier to get away with unorthodox renovations out here. Hell if society breaks down there wont be any code enforcement to worry about anyways.
      In the event of society taking a dump, I fear that you are much to close to La/major population center to survive.

      How would you deal with the humanure disease issues ala hepatitus?

      Comment


        #63
        Originally posted by HereBeADragon View Post
        This is becoming an ever increasingly interest thread. My ideal of hybrid living is being able to live on grid comfortable and live off grit with rationed resources. The Bloombox I see as being a co op system between neighbors as one box will supposedly power over 100 homes and its the size of a parking space. Could you imagine what kind of stability our grid would have if every 100+ homes are hooked up to bloomboxes that are wired to the grid feeding unused power into the rest of the system? You'd pay a fixed rate for your share of the system and nothing more. I'd go a step farther and add solar panels to cover the equivalent of 25%-50% of the energy needed for my home. Add an Ice Bear air conditioning system and your energy usage gets even better.

        Water I think is becoming almost more of a problem to worry about than electricity. I've got some interesting books and dvds on drilling shallow wells and I've been doing a lot of study on rain cisterns. My area gets a lot of rain but only at one time of the year. Rest of the time its pretty dry. I crunched the numbers and came up with an estimate of about 20,000 to 30,000 gallons coming off my roof in a season, I read somewhere that the average household used between 30,000 and 50,000 a year. I don't think I could build a large enough cistern to house all that water but I could build two at 5000 gallons each (one in ground unit in the front of the house and a ferra cement catchment in the back) and catch a large sum of water. Couple that with gray water recycling and that water requirement drops a little (go full humanure composting and you can knock out flushing toilets and drop the water requirements further and using both methods you no longer have sewage to worry about getting rid of!). Build a healthy humas layer in your yards and gardens and only use drip irrigation and your water useage becomes even lower. Finally dig that shallow well and your water needs are in theory sustainable on site.

        Next we have heating. There are all sorts of ways to heat a home but sustainable ones are iffy. You don't really want to need electricity to do this since you'd be burning way to much juice. Wood is a good choice since it is renewable and there are some new high efficiency wood burners that will heat your house and warm water at the same time, maybe couple the wood burner with a solar water heater. Adding a sun and shade room to the house also helps stabilize the temperature indoors. Hell turn the sunroom into a true house attached greenhouse and build an aquaponic system inside it and produce vegetables and fish.

        A healthy garden and a few fruit trees and maybe a chicken tractor and your on your way to a manageable home that can remain on the grid but will survive off the grid too. Not that I've planned it our or anything ;)
        Have you actually tried some of these things completely off the grid? Honestly, I think there's a little generosity spent towards digits in your arithmetic. I think the real solution is to move away from the "standard American living" ideal, ala the use less/need less banner. Though, it generally takes less energy to cool than heat a house* AC would be up there on a list of things to do without, imo.

        I'm not trying to take a shit (see what I did there) on your plan, I genuinely like self sufficiency planning and debate, especially in consideration of the ingenuity put forth. I just want to see some hard facts showing the output of such systems. Considering, capturing methane from shit, you'd have to have a pretty expensive system in place to capture and pipe the gas once you get it, plus there's the input issue that will ultimately control how much raw product can be made.

        One might also consider fermenting cellulose to produce bioethanol. They have strains of bacteria now that are quite efficient at this, but this also has its own costs involved.

        I think, reducing reliance or the need would play the biggest role.

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          #64
          @jubei33 with referance to bio gas, ther is definately an economy of scale when it comes to methane production, and would be most effecient on a national scale. Nuneaton in th UK currently captures methane from landfill to help power the town. The chinese have done a lot of work producing methane digesters on a village scale using low tech construction methods.
          There are relatively economic systems running in Wales on large dairy farms since the 70's. They produce a lot of slurry.
          The economics would definately change in an end of civilisation/peak oil scenario

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            #65
            What percentage of power comes from the methane captured from the landfill?

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              #66
              Several landfills here in TX cap their dumps and generate electricity from it.

              Comment


                #67
                Originally posted by dflanmod View Post
                In the event of society taking a dump, I fear that you are much to close to La/major population center to survive.

                How would you deal with the humanure disease issues ala hepatitus?
                Yucaipa is kind of a hidden city. I'm pretty far from LA and easily missed, I hope. As to disease concerns there is a book titled "The Humanure Handbook" the author covers those issues pretty well. The basic idea is you compost the humanure which heats it killing pathogens and then you let it sit for 2 years (one season to build the heap and another year for it to break down.). You can download that book for free I think and its worth reading. However to save time I have some videos here from the author himself (WARNING if poo makes you uncomfortable don't watch these videos.)




                Originally posted by jubei33 View Post
                Have you actually tried some of these things completely off the grid? Honestly, I think there's a little generosity spent towards digits in your arithmetic. I think the real solution is to move away from the "standard American living" ideal, ala the use less/need less banner. Though, it generally takes less energy to cool than heat a house* AC would be up there on a list of things to do without, imo.

                I'm not trying to take a shit (see what I did there) on your plan, I genuinely like self sufficiency planning and debate, especially in consideration of the ingenuity put forth. I just want to see some hard facts showing the output of such systems....
                I think, reducing reliance or the need would play the biggest role.
                No I haven't gotten to implament these things yet. Its mostly in the planning stages. I think its important to note my list there was covering several instances. The AC would be the first thing to be shut down and disconnected if the grid died (which is why a shade room becomes a valuable addition to your house) but for a grid tied hybrid system the Ice Bear is a better system to use than traditional AC cooling IMO.

                The cistern/well system is somewhat conjecture but I based it off a forumla for calculating water run off from the roof. I'll dig out that book and recalculate the numbers on water run off and be sure to show my work ;) It wasnt that long ago that this is how people got all their water we should be able to go back to it. Grey water from sinks, showers and washing machine allows you to use the same water twice and that saves a lot of gallons. If your brave enough to go the humanure composting route you can eliminate flushing toilets and that makes a major impact on water usage. Irrigate your gardens with drip lines and use mater retention methods and drought tolerant plantings and you can reduce the amount of water used in the garden a lot. Now this is still based on a grid tied system that works comfortably BUT in the event of loss of utilities I would theorize you can get by in a rationed system with this set up. Proof of concept is yet to come.

                I agree the waste model being used has got to go. I'm on that route already, as are others here I suspect. Simply becoming aware of the amount of resources you need and use makes an impact on how you use them. I compost my green waste (haven't talked the family into humanure yet but they are coming around), I grow a lot of food and I am always increasing the amount I can produce on site and I make use of labor and resource saving methods in my gardens and food forest at every opportunity.

                Comment


                  #68
                  Originally posted by Douche_Supreme View Post
                  Several landfills here in TX cap their dumps and generate electricity from it.
                  Yeah, I understand its in use, but the question of how much and for how many people still stands. And the scale is different for a dude in his back yard and a city landfill has input from 1000's of people, making the fuel plentiful. I wonder how much methane you could consistently produce from just your own family's poo/raw composte waste. I posit that even if you include your neighbors, it would be hard to produce enough regularly to make it a reliable source of fuel in this context. ...

                  I mean in this case the effort and input is too high to make it profitable on that scale in that respect. I mean in a way it sounds like getting kerosene from Wolff-Kischner-ing plastics. You can do it, but when you consider the energy needed and the pressure and the cost of making a useable system it just seems a little less profitable.

                  Unless of course you're not talking about reliance, as opposed to a garage project. In that case if you get anything then its a "success".

                  Grey water from sinks, showers and washing machine allows you to use the same water twice and that saves a lot of gallons.
                  One of my friends once made a jacob's ladder and used that to produce an ozone generator, ostensibly for water purification (and mad scientist street cred).

                  Comment


                    #69
                    It depends on how full of shit you are.

                    Comment


                      #70
                      Originally posted by ChenPengFi View Post
                      It depends on how full of shit you are.
                      Indeed. How's it working out for you?

                      Comment


                        #71
                        @the jube meister(you dont mind my informality do you?)

                        I dont have figures on the volume of gas atainable per persons shit/piss, but as part of an intergrated system (solar,hydro,wind,biomass,biogas etc)the fluctuations in supply should level out

                        As it is land fill site have to vent methane off to prevent catastrofic explosions

                        IMO the economics of bio gas all comes down to nesesity. At present it is far more economically viable to rely on fossile fuels to generate power etc. But for how long and at what long term price?
                        For instance, during WWII, in order to free up fuel for the front, many London busses were retro fitted to run off methane, uneconomic before and after the war, but right on the money at times of need

                        How about this for a scifi idea- genetically modify cows for methane production?!!?

                        Comment


                          #72
                          Originally posted by doofaloofa View Post
                          @the jube meister(you dont mind my informality do you?)

                          I dont have figures on the volume of gas atainable per persons shit/piss, but as part of an intergrated system (solar,hydro,wind,biomass,biogas etc)the fluctuations in supply should level out
                          Are we talking powering your own personal energy needs during a crisis, or a community issue regarding fossil fuel usage?

                          and without figures how do you know things will level out? That's a pretty big guess to make, people are depending on you! I don't think people would be to happy to be eaten by zombies when the electric fence runs out of juice. better bust out that calculus book from the moldy back closet and learn how to take derivatives.

                          As it is land fill site have to vent methane off to prevent catastrofic explosions
                          Yeah, but its a land fill they have shit to spare. Again, its the scale of it that I'm thinking about. I'm not convinced the amount of a standard family's shit would be enough to cover their energy needs. (We've already covered that some people are more full of it than others. Thanks ChenPengFi!) Even if you slice it up to just for heating, or just for your car (etc), I think you'd have a big shortfall in production.

                          IMO the economics of bio gas all comes down to nesesity. At present it is far more economically viable to rely on fossile fuels to generate power etc. But for how long and at what long term price?
                          For instance, during WWII, in order to free up fuel for the front, many London busses were retro fitted to run off methane, uneconomic before and after the war, but right on the money at times of need
                          Where did they get the methane from? (eg. natural gas, oil, poo)

                          How about this for a scifi idea- genetically modify cows for methane production?!!?
                          You don't really need to engineer that, they poo enough 'gold mines' as it is. Why not engineer bacteria to do the same. why not purple sulfur bacteria, they produce O2 as a by product of respiration? Then you could purify it from the bioreactor and make millions selling it to hospitals and power your car with it--think about it with a condenser and a few modifications you could make a LOX powered car!

                          Comment


                            #73
                            ^^^
                            Ha! Zombies rise again!
                            Your quite right, my scientific methodology is absent. I just have this good feeling man!

                            Any kind of energy generation is way more efficient the bigger it gets, but potentially over a summer a fair sized supply could be collected to help out over the winter...but then you have storage issues. Municiple bio gas is the only way to go

                            The London bus methane was primarily from chicken manure (my grandad worked for the gas board in the 40's)

                            Great plan with engineering the microbes. I guess I'm Pinky and your The Brain when it comes to science

                            Comment


                              #74
                              I'm Pinky and your The Brain when it comes to science
                              That was a good show.

                              I heard somewhere that a person makes and ounce of poo per 10 pounds weight* per day. We both know that peoples weight and diets are different, but lets call it a pound of shit per day for the average joe.

                              1 Lb x 2.2 kg x 365 days = 803 kg of shit per year.

                              Now lets say that you manage to get a generous half liter of methane per kg of shit. That brings our gold mine to 803kg x .5L = 401.5 L of methane/year. But how many moles of CH4 is this? Well, plugging into PV=nRT and solving for the number of moles** we get:
                              (1.0atm)(401.5L) = n(.0821)(25+273) ----> n = 16.39 mol CH4

                              methane has a heat of combustion of 891 kJ/mol.

                              891 Kj/mol X 16.39 mol = 14603.49 KJ of heat,

                              which can be converted into BTUs as 13841.43 BTUs/yr from one person's shit.

                              *this could be bullshit, just something I heard.
                              **assuming standard temp and pressure: 1atm,25C
                              ***Yes, this is a big stretch, with a lot of assumptions, but god damnit I've had a bunch of whiskey tonight and its going to be an even longer night! YEEEEHAWWW!

                              I got some liquid rocket fuel for you right here!
                              Last edited by jubei33; 9/23/2011 5:54am, .

                              Comment


                                #75
                                Originally posted by jubei33 View Post
                                That was a good show.

                                I heard somewhere that a person makes and ounce of poo per 10 pounds weight* per day. We both know that peoples weight and diets are different, but lets call it a pound of shit per day for the average joe.

                                1 Lb x 2.2 kg x 365 days = 803 kg of shit per year.

                                Now lets say that you manage to get a generous half liter of methane per kg of shit. That brings our gold mine to 803kg x .5L = 401.5 L of methane/year. But how many moles of CH4 is this? Well, plugging into PV=nRT and solving for the number of moles** we get:
                                (1.0atm)(401.5L) = n(.0821)(25+273) ----> n = 16.39 mol CH4

                                methane has a heat of combustion of 891 kJ/mol.

                                891 Kj/mol X 16.39 mol = 14603.49 KJ of heat,

                                which can be converted into BTUs as 13841.43 BTUs/yr from one person's shit.

                                *this could be bullshit, just something I heard.
                                **assuming standard temp and pressure: 1atm,25C
                                ***Yes, this is a big stretch, with a lot of assumptions, but god damnit I've had a bunch of whiskey tonight and its going to be an even longer night! YEEEEHAWWW!

                                I got some liquid rocket fuel for you right here!
                                This link puts the amount of poo at about 1/2 pound per day so cut your figure in half. An interesting article on the science of calculating poo averages.
                                http://www.poopreport.com/Intellectu...much_poop.html

                                I knew the energy from poo would be low, I just did'nt think it would be that low.

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