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View Full Version : Chuck Hardin's Judo claims...



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Mtripp
6/22/2010 10:39am,
OK, this will be in stages throughout the day. So this first:

http://www.usja-judo.org/forms.htm

At that link, anyone can download the forms that USJA uses for various events and Judo Business.

http://www.usja-judo.org/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=USC&Product_Code=Patch12

http://www.usja-judo.org/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=USC&Product_Code=Patch13

The above will link to the rank tabs used by USJA.

More to come.

Rock Ape
6/22/2010 10:44am,
Mark,

This isn't a game show.

Post the conclusions of the information you have please.

Mtripp
6/22/2010 11:15am,
A few days ago, I was asked to look into the claims of Chuck Hardin, perhaps asked is too tame, dragged kicking and screaming is more correct.

Mr. Hardin has claimed Judo activity in his youth (25 years ago,) Shiai attendance, and that he earned the rank of Sankyu (3rd degree brown belt.) Also, Mr. Hardin claims to have fought as a junior, never as a senior.

The first thing that struck me as odd was the confusion in the story about Sankyu being either a Green Belt or a Brown Belt. There is no such confusion in the USJA.

When a person is promoted in the USJA, a promotion packet is sent to one of three people, the player, the coach, or the club secretary. There is a box to check on all USJA forms of this nature to decide where it is sent. In the promotion packet are three items of interest. There is a new rank paper, a new membership card reflecting your new rank, and a rank tab for your Judo Gi. The senior rank tabs may be found here...

http://www.usja-judo.org/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=USC&Product_Code=Patch13

As you can see, the belt color is plainly the background color on the rank tab. Moreover, the color of the belt is also on the USJA Rank Certificate. So there could not possibly be any confusion as to what color belt a Sankyu is.

However, there is yet another problem. Chuck says he was a junior, and ages 14 - 16 IS a junior in USJA, the term "kyu" is not used. Juniors in USJA have a different set of requirements and rank tabs.

There rank tabs are here:

http://www.usja-judo.org/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=USC&Product_Code=Patch12

The promotion forms and tests for Junior and Senior Ranks are here...

http://www.usja-judo.org/forms.htm

Down load the PDF files, as they are too big to post here.

So, we now have a major area of confusion. To wit; how did a Junior obtain Senior ranks?

Mtripp
6/22/2010 11:18am,
Mark,

This isn't a game show.

Post the conclusions of the information you have please.

You know, up to now I have been respectful to you. However, what you call a "game show" is me working with people on this site to do this they way they would wish me to.

Moreover, I am typing this as I go along, so with all due respect, I will do this as best as I can, as quickly as I can, and in the manner I was asked to do it.

Is that ok with you?

PS: I have been asked by staff to wait until this evening to post more. I will honor that request. However, once this is done, so am I.

Rock Ape
6/22/2010 11:24am,
Sure Mark that is fine with me, my comments were to ensure this wasn't going to be some dragged out thread.

Had you explained in your opening post the reasoning for the "more to follow" aspect, that wouldn't have caused me to make my request which was reasonable.

Mtripp
6/22/2010 11:29am,
Sure Mark that is fine with me, my comments were to ensure this wasn't going to be some dragged out thread.

Had you explained in your opening post the reasoning for the "more to follow" aspect, that wouldn't have caused me to make my request which was reasonable.

"Game Show" is NOT reasonable sir, it is however the kind of projective insult that fills the boards these days. Which is why the second I have finished this task I will leave these boards to those who find such behavior acceptable....

...especially when I can not put on my ignore list, someone who insulted me.

Rock Ape
6/22/2010 11:32am,
Redacted.

Raging Monkey
6/22/2010 11:41am,
I can't beleive I am having to do this...

This is MABS.

Please take the back-and-forth pissing contest to PM if necessary.

Petter
6/22/2010 11:47am,
Some observations from the other thread:


Chuck said that his instructor’s system was initially some weird homebrew with red, white, and blue belts and all kinds of weirdness, which later morphed into a more conventional judo program. It’s unclear to me whether the normal senior/junior rules were necessarily followed in any detail.
Given the above, and given the fact that “kyu” is standard terminology for non-yudansha ranks in many JMAs, I don’t think that “sankyu” is a very confusing term no matter what the USJA may do for juniors.
His profile, as cited, claimed that he attained “sankyu under an officially certified judo shodan” or something to this effect. The phrasing was interesting in that the assertion was explicit that his instructor held official rank, but was not explicit in asserting that Chunk’s own rank was registered. From what I read (in that long thread, I may well have missed some pertinent posts) it’s entirely possible that he only had a dojo rank of sankyu. If his instructor cannot be found in the records, then and only then was that account dishonest.

Mtripp
6/22/2010 11:48am,
I can't beleive I am having to do this...

This is MABS.

Please take the back-and-forth pissing contest to PM if necessary.

Yes, HE should have PM's me first. I was ASKED by staff to do this, insults were NOT part of the contract.

Spare me the conflict resolution clap trap where we blame both people for a single insult. I DID NOT ASK to do this, and I DID NOT WANT to do this.

I am keeping my word then you all can go **** yourselves.

Res Judicata
6/22/2010 11:56am,
This borders on the absurd and whatever staff asked you to do this should apologize.

As a 14 year old kid you wear whatever belt your instructor tells you to wear and you're whatever rank your instructor tells you are. Maybe the instructor gets the organization paperwork done, maybe he doesn't. At such a low rank it barely matters.

The USJA has very nice system for juniors -- in theory. But how many people actually follow it? Or, in the real world, distinguishes between the junior grades and the senior kyu grades?

Just as an example, I don't think my instructor even bothers with the paperwork below sankyu for seniors, and that's only so you qualify to get points at the USJF promotional shiai. He certainly doesn't do formal tests for kyu ranks. You do your kata in front of the board for dan ranks once you have the points.

Rock Ape
6/22/2010 12:04pm,
Here you go Mark..

If you felt that my post was an insult to you than you have my full and unreserved apology.

The "game show" comment wasn't specifically directed at you as an individual although, clearly that's how you've taken it, it was a reference to several other threads that have been created.

I have nothing further to say other than to comment on the hypocrisy of your post to Raging Monkey.

Apparently its not OK for me to "insult" you, but its perfectly acceptable for you to tell everyone here to "**** yourselves" ?

baby_cart
6/22/2010 12:06pm,
Just as an example, I don't think my instructor even bothers with the paperwork below sankyu for seniors, and that's only so you qualify to get points at the USJF promotional shiai. He certainly doesn't do formal tests for kyu ranks. You do your kata in front of the board for dan ranks once you have the points.

so you're saying that your instructor does not do standardized quality control?

Res Judicata
6/22/2010 12:17pm,
so you're saying that your instructor does not do standardized quality control?

(I recognize that this will be culled from the MABS thread, but I want to post in context.)

I'm saying my instructor is a USJF/KDK rokudan with about 40 years of experience. He knows damn well what rank someone should be from observing uchi komi, randori and other practice. At the kyu ranks, it's more about what division you should be fighting in than anything else.

Mtripp
6/22/2010 12:43pm,
As I have shown, there is a serious problem with the claims of rank made by Mr. Hardin. He was a junior at the time, and yet claims to have earned senior rank.

I have personal experience with this issue, because when Frank Hubbard, the Coach at the Budokan Judo club in Dearborn MI, tried to make me Brown Belt with the USJA WAY back in 1969, he was told I was a junior and could not be made a Sankyu. Frank wrote back and said you should see how big he is! We simply waited until I was 17 and then moved me into the senior program.

Mr. Hardin would HAVE to have earned ranks prior to the brown, or even the green belt. Even if the senior rank system were used, there would have to be a promotion for Rokyu (Yellow Belt) and then Gokyu (Orange Belt) BEFORE we get to Yokyu (Green Belt) and then Sankyu (Brown belt, 3rd degree). Every one of those promotions would have required testing, promotion papers filled out, paid for, and signed, and then the receipt of said promotion packet. Every one of them would have been entered into the database at USJA headquarters.

However, as a junior he would have had to go through 10 separate promotions testing’s to get to brown belt (Junior 11th degree.) If the belt was green rather than brown, and I would think Mr. Hardin should remember the color as it was the LAST rank he earned in Judo, then he would have only had 5 separate promotions to have gone through as a junior. BUT, as I said, each and every one of those would require a new test, forms, and promotion packet. EVERY one would generate a new rank/membership card with USJA.

Obviously you would have to be a member of USJA to get these promotions.
IF Mr. Hardin was a junior ranked player, who then became a senior ranked player, there is a form to be filled out and submitted to move a player from junior to senior status. Again, I did this with my player Josh Gilbert at a Spirit of the Eagle Camp years ago.

The point is, there would be a paper trail if ANY of these events took place.
Sadly, using as many different spellings as I could think of, USJA has NO record of Mr. Hardin. In point of fact, they have NO Hardin in the database at all. No promotions, no membership, nothing on him at all.

This becomes more troubling when the question of attendance at Shiai (tournaments) comes up. Of course we are speaking of sanctioned Shiai. EVERY judo group in the US frowns on unsanctioned shiai’s due to the lack of insurance, and the liability issues of their coaches being sued at an unsanctioned event. ANY coach who takes players to unsanctioned events is subject to severe punishment including stripping them of ranks and certifications and membership.

There is simply no way the Junior Shiai’s were unsanctioned which means you would HAVE to be a member of USJI, USJA, or USJF to get on the mat. EVERYONE on the mat would have to be. If even one person was on that mat and uninsured, it voids the insurance for the entire event. Again, use the web site to look up sanctions for tournaments and you will see the guidelines.

Mr. Hardin claims his father registered him for his Shiai. If this happened, where is the record of his membership? The check would have been made out to USJA and given to the tournament director. It is the tournament director NOT the club coach who registers and files the paperwork for the new members at the Shiai. Failure to do this is unheard of, as it opens them up for a liability claim. I have NEVER heard of someone joining one of the Judo groups at a Shiai and not getting their membership materials.

More to the point, when Mr. Hardin went to his second Shiai, he would have had to present his membership card. You cannot play unless you are a member. Even if his coach kept all the promotion money, and issued dojo papers for his rank, you could NOT fight in ANY Judo Shiai without a membership card.

Mr. Hardin says his club was a USJA club, and that he checked out his Coach. So, again, we have a major problem, if you cannot fight in a Shiai without being a member, and the USJA says Mr. Hardin has NEVER been a member, then there is only one sad conclusion to be drawn. The entire story simply cannot be true in the face of the facts of this story.

I have no idea what Mr. Hardin did or did not do in his youth. I do know that USJA has NO evidence to support any of his claims of efforts in Judo. Based on my personal knowledge of how the Judo world works in the US, I have no other choice but to say that the story as related by Mr. Hardin is clearly false.

I leave it to this forum and board as to what they wish to do with this information. As for me it is VERY plain that the current belief is that you must either side with Chuck or Matt, and woe to you for your choice!

I have NOT chosen sides; I have simply researched claims about Judo. People who have been respectful to me here, no longer are. I cannot “ignore” insulting comments from people in positions of power, and frankly they all should be thrilled THEY didn’t have to do the job they asked me to.

It galls me all the more when I see that the person who actually caused this **** storm has now got EVERYTHING he wanted. The site is disrupted, and I will NOT be here any more either. So many of you are such fools…

Good luck guys, but this is my stop. I now return, to the shadows.

Soldiermedic
6/22/2010 12:49pm,
I just wanted to say thank you.

I've only been on this form for a short while, but every thread you've written and comment you've left shows knowledge and sincerity. I think that you've done an excellent investigation while seperating it from the other issues surrounding this matter.