PDA

View Full Version : SCARS defenders what you say to this?



Pages : [1] 2 3

JackHanma
2/21/2004 5:03pm,
The full article can be found here from which I quote:

http://www.navyseals.com/community/navyseals/training.cfm

Quote:FAQs about BUD/s Training.

Can you tell me, if it's not classified info, a little bit about Navy SEAL hand to hand combat? There are many advertisements in Black Belt magazine that claim to be the instructors of the SEALs or the style that the SEALs use, like Col. Jerry Peterson's SCARS, Lew Hick's SAFTA, Richard Burton Jeet Kune Do. Also do they have any opinion about the Ultimate Fighting Championship, Brazilian Jiujitsu, and grappling in general? One contestant in the UFC, John Bess, or Hess, who said he was the co-founder of SAFTA, lost his fight which consisted mostly of punching.

All the claimes in Black Belt Magazine or SOF are semi-true. Jerry Peterson, Lew Hicks and Richard Burton all had some involvment with SEAL hand to hand combat programs. East Coast teams used Jeet Kun Do for some number of years in the 80's and 90's. Peterson modified San Soo Kung Fu into his "Special Combat Aggressive Reactionary System ("SCARS") and sold it the NSW as a complete combat fighting system. It was a pretty decent program - I participated in the 2nd 30 day intensive instructor course and I can validate that it is a very effective offensive fighting system. Jerry's problem was his ego and inflexibility. Also there were people in NSW who thought it should be an internal program and not external. So hand to hand training at the Schoolhouse level (as opposed to informal) was brought into the Naval Special Warfare Center Advanced Training and is now called the Combat Fighting Course and is taught as part of Close Quarter Battle training.

Now SAFTA was a creation of Lew Hicks. Lew was Jerry's top SEAL student. My impression of SAFTA is that it is SCARS with new terminology and marketing - along with a few SEAL specific tricks thrown in. Whereas Jerry Peterson claimed to have combat experience, he had no special operations experience. Lew never sold SAFTA to Naval Special Warfare, but did train a number of SEALs on the side "unofficially". UFC contestant Hess was a student of Lew Hicks whom he partnered with for the purposes of gaining greater exposure for the SAFTA fighting system.

That is my take on your questions. Some of my details may be a little fuzzy - but I am pretty sure it is mostly accurate.

Mark D.
NavySEALs.com



Now if SAFTA is like SCARS with respect to mindset and practice and Lew Hicks was "Jerry's top Seal Student" then wouldn't it follow that John Hess with whom Hicks parterned would be a fair representative of SCARS based combat? Hicks seemed to think well of Hess and Jerry well of Hicks.
Jerry taught Hicks, Hick then taught Hess. I doubt that SCARS teaching the Hicks taught could has strayed so far from SCARS that is couldn't be considered representive after a fashion.

I relized that Hess is not a direct representive of SCARS but rather of Hicks. So my argument hinges on Hicks' SAFTA being close enough to SCARS that the average SCARS practitioner is similiar in fighting ability to John Hess. I understand that Hicks is overweight and prehaps not reprsentative in that sense, however Hicks is quite large and strong. This would seem put him in an overall advantage physically in comparision to the average SCARS practitioner despite his weight.

Enter Super Brawl 2. John Hess' second fight after his victory in the UFC. This time its against someone we all know. Vitor Belfort. Vitor (who weighed 80 lbs less) KO's Hess after 12 seconds of absolutely brutal G&P. Download the Vitor highlight from Sherdog if you have doubts.

If SAFTA which very close to SCARS, and SCARS is a scientfically flawless approach to combat and therefore vastly better than MMA, then why didn't last it for more than 12 seconds against Vitor? I understand that fighter's ability to fight are more important than what principles the fighter adhears concerning fighting but Hess performance was so terrible that I question if the confidence SCARS practitioners place in SCARS is well placed. I base this off the data from an actual fight involving someone seemingly familiar with SCARS or SCARS-like training.

I could be mistaken with some of my assumption but I feel spectre of John Hess needs to be addressed by the defenders. I am not trying taunt Kungfoolss, I just have serious doubts about SCARS as a good combat system.

dopefish
2/21/2004 5:29pm,
Why do people try to use the SEAL Teams to pump up their martial method? The SEAL martial way is simple, shoot him. If you dont have a gun, push a sharp metal object threw him. If you dont have a sharp metal object, use a blunt one. If you dont have that, sneak up and choke em out or break their neck. But always make sure he doesn't know your coming. At least thats what I have infered from the biographies I have read about the Nam era SEALs. Maybe BlacksmithSEAL can shed some light on this.

LLL
2/21/2004 5:38pm,
'through'. 'don't'. 'inferred'.

**** SCARS. Die.

Perfection
2/21/2004 5:49pm,
Not a defender, but I know enough about it to give you some really objective answers. I'll try to answer your queries to the best of my ability.

LLL
2/21/2004 5:52pm,
...

Ki Chuan Do.

John.

Perkins.

I think you won't have time for the SCARS stuff...

LLL
2/21/2004 6:09pm,
**** fucking SCARS and by God, please bestow death on every single person on who has ever touched anything related to said 'art' (except Mr. D.R.Dalton)...

DIE.

LLL
2/21/2004 6:10pm,
;) Sorry

Perfection
2/21/2004 6:15pm,
Originally posted by JackHanma
The full article can be found here from which I quote:
Now if SAFTA is like SCARS with respect to mindset and practice and Lew Hicks was "Jerry's top Seal Student" then wouldn't it follow that John Hess with whom Hicks parterned would be a fair representative of SCARS based combat? Hicks seemed to think well of Hess and Jerry well of Hicks.
Jerry taught Hicks, Hick then taught Hess. I doubt that SCARS teaching the Hicks taught could has strayed so far from SCARS that is couldn't be considered representive after a fashion.

Lew Hicks was not Jerry's top student. To my knowledge he made it to Level 2 of 4 Levels. However, I don't know if this is valid or not because I dont' know if hand to hand is taught beyond Level 2.(shrugs)

I don't know anything about Hess either, but I can say this. SAFTA, SCARS and Kung Fu San Soo are practically the same thing. There are differences in training pace and execution but fundamentally they all fall under the category of what I refer to as Autokinematic/Autonomic systems. They look practically identical, whereas other arts look completely different from the three mentioned above. I've seen hours and hours and hours of videotape of all three so I'm in a very strong position to make this judgement.

To be fair however, there are times when minute differences can make or break a system. IMO, if you combined what worked in all three, you'd have a very formidable methodology.


Originally posted by JackHanma
I relized that Hess is not a direct representive of SCARS but rather of Hicks. So my argument hinges on Hicks' SAFTA being close enough to SCARS that the average SCARS practitioner is similiar in fighting ability to John Hess. I understand that Hicks is overweight and prehaps not reprsentative in that sense, however Hicks is quite large and strong. This would seem put him in an overall advantage physically in comparision to the average SCARS practitioner despite his weight.

Hicks is a much better autokinematic/autostatic performer than most of what I've seen from the lower level SCARS practitioners, but so are some of the Kung Fu San Soo masters. Whats not known about Hess is exactly how much training he actually had or the quality of Hick's instruction. I spoke with Blake Peterson very briefly about this at the camp in July of 2000 and he and another guy told me that the guy didn't utilize any of the principles whatsoever. This may have been legit, or it could have been for simple "justification". I don't know for sure.


Originally posted by JackHanma

Enter Super Brawl 2. John Hess' second fight after his victory in the UFC. This time its against someone we all know. Vitor Belfort. Vitor (who weighed 80 lbs less) KO's Hess after 12 seconds of absolutely brutal G&P. Download the Vitor highlight from Sherdog if you have doubts.

Can't confirm but I was told by Kungfoolss that the Hess guy grounded and pounded the hell out of some traditional artist the same way you described being done by Vitor. Understand this however, there are some people out there that neither you nor I can beat in a fight and this has nothing to do with training. Just a fact that some people hate to deal with.


Originally posted by JackHanma

If SAFTA which very close to SCARS, and SCARS is a scientfically flawless approach to combat and therefore vastly better than MMA, then why didn't last it for more than 12 seconds against Vitor? I understand that fighter's ability to fight are more important than what principles the fighter adhears concerning fighting but Hess performance was so terrible that I question if the confidence SCARS practitioners place in SCARS is well placed. I base this off the data from an actual fight involving someone seemingly familiar with SCARS or SCARS-like training.

Thats actually a great question. I personally think SCARS makes huge mistakes in downplaying a lot of systems and possibilities. The best thing I can say is that SCARS was ultimately designed for a rapid, first strike and overwhelm the opponent type of situation. If someone took it to the ring, it just wouldn't be the same. Aside from that, there are some flaws in the training methodology that I've attempted on many occasions to explain to some of the practitioners but they either ignore me or say stuff like "you're going off the deep end". However, with my training partners, I give them physical examples and the denial goes straight out of the window almost instantly.


Originally posted by JackHanma

I could be mistaken with some of my assumption but I feel spectre of John Hess needs to be addressed by the defenders. I am not trying taunt Kungfoolss, I just have serious doubts about SCARS as a good combat system.

The way you're behaving is quite mature and it abolutely warrants a response. Please lets avoid dragging this conversation into the mud.

Sincerely,

Ken

LLL
2/21/2004 6:24pm,
What the **** is this ****?

Let's pay all our cash to study an asslicking system like 'SCARS' & if there are any leftovers, we're giving them to John Perkins...


For ****'s sake, go away already...

It's humanely impossible to suck more ass.

Perfection
2/21/2004 6:29pm,
Originally posted by LLL
What the **** is this ****?

Let's pay all our cash to study an asslicking system like 'SCARS' & if there are any leftovers, we're giving them to John Perkins...


For ****'s sake, go away already...

It's humanely impossible to suck more ass.

All opinions respected.

The Wastrel
2/21/2004 6:50pm,
Thanks Perfection, for a reasonable and lucid commentary on SCARS.

Rigante
2/21/2004 7:01pm,
First off Jerry Peterson was an enlisted personnel in Vietnam not a Col. Secondly who named Lew Hicks as Jerry's top student? Next if the student of a persson who is the student of another instructor gets their ass kicked what does that mean? It means crap.

Am I coming on here claiming that is the ultimate fighting system for NHB competition. Has anyone claimed that. Does their website claim it the best system for NHB competition? They make some outragious claims which I have said before I dont like, but their hand to weapons in my book is still the cream of the crop. Can you point me to a better system for hand to weapon?

Different systems are like different tools. Each has their use and value. Thats why there is cross training. I dont know anything about Vitor Belforts skill sets in hand to weapons. I have seen what the Gracies market for hand to weapon and it is substandard at best. On the other hand SCARS was and is not designed for NHB competition. If an individual decided to depend only upon that system for NHB competition then that person is a fool.

JackHanma
2/21/2004 7:12pm,
Quote: Can't confirm but I was told by Kungfoolss that the Hess guy grounded and pounded the hell out of some traditional artist the same way you described being done by Vitor. Understand this however, there are some people out there that neither you nor I can beat in a fight and this has nothing to do with training. Just a fact that some people hate to deal with.


Its true the in the UFC Joh Hess eye gouged and then beat the heck out a TMA person named Andy Anderson (a far smaller opponent who still managed a to take the fight to the ground) but it was very sloppy and absolutely nothing like beating Vitor gave Hess at Super Brawl 2. Hess was a helpless baby in front of Vitor at Super Brawl 2. In twelve seconds, Vitor grounded him and hit him in the head over twenty times. Hess would had a better chance a against a truck than professional MMA Althete like Vitor. It was Vitor's quickest fight on records. The Vitor highlight that you can dowloaded on Sherdog has 8 of the 12 seconds of the fight. Its the worst beaten since the Wing Tsun guy in MMA.

My argument is simply this: If SCARS practitioners fight like John Hess and MMA Athletes fight like Vitor and Vitor can in bash head the of a larger SCARS fighter John Hess in under 12 seconds why would anyone want to fight using SCARS when you could fight like Vitor?

Perfection
2/21/2004 7:21pm,
Originally posted by The Wastrel
Thanks Perfection, for a reasonable and lucid commentary on SCARS.

No problem Wastrel. Thank *you* for actually reading what I said. LOL.

Sincerely,

Ken

Perfection
2/21/2004 7:35pm,
Originally posted by JackHanma
Quote: Can't confirm but I was told by Kungfoolss that the Hess guy grounded and pounded the hell out of some traditional artist the same way you described being done by Vitor. Understand this however, there are some people out there that neither you nor I can beat in a fight and this has nothing to do with training. Just a fact that some people hate to deal with.


Its true the in the UFC Joh Hess eye gouged and then beat the heck out a TMA person named Andy Anderson (a far smaller opponent who still managed a to take the fight to the ground) but it was very sloppy and absolutely nothing like beating Vitor gave Hess at Super Brawl 2. Hess was a helpless baby in front of Vitor at Super Brawl 2. In twelve seconds, Vitor grounded him and hit him in the head over twenty times. Hess would had a better chance a against a truck than professional MMA Althete like Vitor. It was Vitor's quickest fight on records. The Vitor highlight that you can dowloaded on Sherdog has 8 of the 12 seconds of the fight. Its the worst beaten since the Wing Tsun guy in MMA.

My argument is simply this: If SCARS practitioners fight like John Hess and MMA Athletes fight like Vitor and Vitor can in bash head the of a larger SCARS fighter John Hess in under 12 seconds why would anyone want to fight using SCARS when you could fight like Vitor?

In all honesty, on some level I'm in very strong agreement with you and I hear your point exactly. But you said something that was key, "fight like Vitor".

The bottom line is that a lot of fighters you see in competition are "blessed" and are also gifted athletes so they would probably excel to a much higher degree in any physical arena than the average person. Seriously, how many 6'2", 270 pound all muscle guys like Mark Kerr can't fight? I'm willing to bet that he started wrestling because he had natural size and strength already.

I'm going to get a copy of that tape because no one could remember the name of Lew Hick's fighter. This is only a counter argument, but can't you ask the question, what if Mark Kerr trained in SCARS? I'm not saying you'd be successful but that would give a better idea as to how effective a system is or isn't.

Again, remember this is simply a counterargument and not necessarily my exact opinion, but the fact that Hess didn't do anything within the parameters of what is supposed to happen in a SAFTA "kill set" can give a SAFTA proponent an outlet to say he didn't train very well. Personally, I'm in agreement with you on those matters as well. If you don't train realistically against, say a "double leg takedown", how is one to know that what you're doing is effective? I watch my SCARS Compression tapes and I don't know if they are aware of it or not, but those are horrible takedowns.

The SCARS fighter basically falls into the attacker instead of shooting in with any real structure. That in my opinion still doesn't degrade the system completely because a lot of people on the streets would probably be just as sloppy. But as Rigante said, when you enter an arena where a guy has trained shoots and takedowns for the last 12 years, that stuff doesn't work.

Sincerely,

Ken

Perfection
2/21/2004 7:36pm,
null