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express664
4/06/2010 2:37pm,
i think this school might be bullshido.They call themselves a mixed martial arts school but they are taekwondo club which also does ground work which they say is jiu jistu based but no mention of anyone having any rank in jiu jitsu. they also teach hunmudo and weapons but the main style they teach is taekwondo.

http://www.taekwondohawks.co.uk/TheTraining.html

http://www.taekwondohawks.co.uk/default.html:waijima

BoonDog
4/06/2010 2:50pm,
So what fraud are you accusing them of or what fraud do you think the school is engaged in?

express664
4/06/2010 2:57pm,
false advertising for calling themselves a mixed martial arts club. It also says "We teach TaeKwonDo (hands & feet), HanMuDo (locks & holds), Jiu-Jitsu (groundwork), Weapons and self-defence"

BoonDog
4/06/2010 3:07pm,
false advertising for calling themselves a mixed martial arts club. It also says "We teach TaeKwonDo (hands & feet), HanMuDo (locks & holds), Jiu-Jitsu (groundwork), Weapons and self-defence"

Explain what a MMA club should teach then. Sound to me like they maxed some arts together. Where is the false claim?

cyrijl
4/06/2010 3:39pm,
this will go to ymas. but there is this hidden jewel

Groundwork
(Jiu Jitsu based)
The primary idea as a beginner is to get the attacker off you and escape. There is little striking involved, just a lot of body manoeuvring and locks to the arms, legs and neck. Smaller people may struggle against a bigger opponent so they have to use pressure points.

emphasis mine.

madmonkey
4/06/2010 3:44pm,
On the TKD side their program is pretty straight forward for an ITF style club. They use one step sparring as well as points sparring. They seem a bit more progressive than most TKD clubs with their inclusion of SWEEPS and THROWS in their free sparring (only with mats out). The belt structure is slightly different in colour order than most TKD but still has only 10 grades before blackbelt whic is standard. Their class charges seem fair and are in line with mist clubs/orgs(5 for 2hours very reasonable), however 35 for a grading is expensive but they openly state all charges so you know what they are.

I also like their idea of welcoming people with disabilities to the class and their desire to adapt techniques to suit different disabilities(good intention hard to deliver). As to Hanmundo, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_Mu_Do
It sounds like a more aikido version of Hapkido.

The only inconsistency is their mention of Hanmudo and Jiujitsu based programs as you point out. This is inconsistent with the instructor profiles they have for the founders, none of whom seem to have trained in either Hanmudo or Jiujistu/Judo, according to their own profiles.

Their founders are Charlotte Waters and Lee McAll. Ms Waters bio claims many gold medals from lots of competitions although without detail (but is a short bio). Also says she travelled to America to become fully qualified at 15 and an instructor at 18. This is the only BS sounding part as no specific details are given of the art or org she qualified(assuming TKD) in and 15 is a very young age to be "FULLY QUALIFIED" also why would she have to go to America for this.

Mr McAll seems to have had experience of many arts and is "trained in door security and conflict management". He is not registered with SIA for Door Supervision at least not using the details provided on the website but then he does not claim to be A Door Supervisor only to have received the training which could be entirely true. But again the arts he has practised according to the bio(karate, TKD, kung fu and kickboxing) do not include Jiujitsu Hanmudo or Judo.

HOWEVER all this DOES NOT PROVE they are false advertising as they could be hiring outside instructors to run these programs or they might have further qualifications or other instructors who are qualified in those arts.

tkd panda
4/06/2010 4:16pm,
They claim to teach Gen Choi Hong Hi's taekwon-do yet include weapons? this is completely against one of the main training methodoligies within the ITF as in TKD stands for "the foot fist way" not whatever else they feel like adding this isnt an ITF style club.

having said that + rep for allowing sweeps and takedowns they are an original component of TKD.

madmonkey
4/06/2010 5:25pm,
They claim to teach Gen Choi Hong Hi's taekwon-do yet include weapons? this is completely against one of the main training methodoligies within the ITF as in TKD stands for "the foot fist way" not whatever else they feel like adding this isnt an ITF style club.

having said that + rep for allowing sweeps and takedowns they are an original component of TKD.
Can you point out where they claim to Gen Choi Hong Hi's Taekwondo, as I cannot find it. They Mention they train the patterns as designed by Gen Choi but they do not link him to any other aspect of training. Equally the weapons training is an extra "enrichment program" to be trained alongside TKD and they recommend their blackbelts to train two extra programs.

Also by ITF Style club I meant they probably base their form of Taekwondo on ITF but are not affiliated with ITF (Which one there are three remember)otherwise I would have called them an ITF club. Their instructor Mr McAll mentions experience with ITF, WTF and ITA so again ITF derived style club if you want a more accurate definition.

dougguod
4/06/2010 5:51pm,
the weapons training is an extra "enrichment program" to be trained alongside TKD


I'm less concerned with the existence of a weapons program than the fact that one of the weapons offered is "Bow Staft".

Arskanator
4/06/2010 7:53pm,
The one thing that caught my eye was this:


(Dipped foam sparring gear must be
worn at all times when sparring
and only light contact is to
be used by all students.
Sparring Gear must be purchased
through TaeKwonDo Hawks.
This is club policy.)
YouTube- Red Flag - Billy Talent (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hNWqisRwuY)

madmonkey
4/07/2010 2:03am,
The one thing that caught my eye was this:
YouTube- Red Flag - Billy Talent (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hNWqisRwuY)
Yeah, that does seem like a monopoly. I am sure their argument will be that they want to ensure that everyone has suitable pads and that by ordering with them you will get a good deal. Don't know what supplier they are using or what price they are charging so difficult to comment.

All things considered they seem an alright if not good club as far as TKD goes:
-Reasonable class charges
-More than just TKD on offer
-TKD with sweeps and take downs
-NO CONTRACTS
There are certainly a lot worse out there. The only inconsistency is who teaches their enrichment programs for Jiujitsu or Hanmudo.

Arskanator
4/07/2010 3:07am,
Yeah, that does seem like a monopoly. I am sure their argument will be that they want to ensure that everyone has suitable pads and that by ordering with them you will get a good deal. Don't know what supplier they are using or what price they are charging so difficult to comment.

All things considered they seem an alright if not good club as far as TKD goes:
-Reasonable class charges
-More than just TKD on offer
-TKD with sweeps and take downs
-NO CONTRACTS
There are certainly a lot worse out there. The only inconsistency is who teaches their enrichment programs for Jiujitsu or Hanmudo.

True, true.

BTW, at our JJ club, if we order equipment trough the club, we actually get them for less then if we'd buy/order them ourself.

madmonkey
4/07/2010 6:10am,
True, true.

BTW, at our JJ club, if we order equipment trough the club, we actually get them for less then if we'd buy/order them ourself.

Same at my Muay Thai club and other clubs I have belonged to in the past. Supply Companies offer discounts to Instructors as they provide access to a group of students thus increasing customer base for suppliers.

I would suggest this thread is done with as little to really investigate. They are not claiming th3 D34dly or to be the ultimate in martial arts.

Coach Josh
4/07/2010 8:14am,
http://www.taekwondohawks.co.uk/0_0_0_0_136_188_csupload_17572755_large.png?u=6340 61430758328750

At least she is easy on the eyes.

They look like a former ITA club. More than likely they had a falling out with the ITA and just started their own stuff. The uniforms are telling me this. The original ITF schools don't use the same striping on the collars and WTF uses the pullover.

I will say about the ITA as a former certified instructor with them that they do have a good system in place for children and recreational MAist. They seriously lack anything for the fighter or athlete.

Rock Ape
4/07/2010 8:47am,
"Express664"

Exactly what relationship do you have with the group you highlight in the OP ?

Why have you decided to create ANOTHER thread in this particular forum without reading the stickies?

If you feel the group in question is acting inappropriately why don't you contact them, discuss your concerns with them and see what happens from there.

If you create another pretty pointless thread in this forum I suggest you'll be confined to the Mad Cow Quarantine until you learn a little more internet-fu

Understand ?

Rock Ape
4/07/2010 8:50am,
..//.. HOWEVER all this DOES NOT PROVE they are false advertising as they could be hiring outside instructors to run these programs or they might have further qualifications or other instructors who are qualified in those arts.Agreed, and this group isn't investigation worthy.

Off to YMAS this goes.