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Bri Thai
2/13/2004 11:58am,
After looking at the minority of sensible comment on the subject of the Fence here, I have though long and hard what the problem may be. I think it is this, most places I post have a good grasp of what the Fence actually is. So they understand a review of the Fence video a little more than many of you here. No offence intended. I just had no idea that these concepts were almost unheard of in these parts.

However, though there is no good reason to flame the review (sensible, honest and thought provoking criticisms always welcome though) it may well be fair for me to explain what the actual Fence is. Bear in mind that a written text, especially without pictures, can never do it justice - and just as the Mount does not look aesthetically pleasing to the untrained eye, neither does the Fence.

The fence is relevant in the periods immediately before a real fight. Not an "ambush" situation, and not a pre arranged street fight though. And certainly not a sports fight. It is relevant to one of those situations where someone approaches and threatens you - maybe a potential robber, a drunkard, a bullying moron. And your job is to avoid the fight if you can or, if not, hit first and take him down with one blow.

A main point is to control the range. Standing or ground grappling may not be where you want to be. Brilliant as those arts are, they are nowhere near as quick as a one punch/strike knockout. As an aside, don't jump on the "you're slagging of grappling" bandwagon. Geoff Thompson has spent years refining his grappling skills. Fighting is fighting, and they may well be needed.

You will be presented with conversation range anyway (about 18" away from each other), so if you're best strikes are currently trained from a further distance, you may wish to practice them differently.

The hands are used in a natrual way (talking with your hands so to speak), and act as a natural barrier between you. This is what is meant by the "fence". It is a physical and psychological barrier for him to cross. the more he touches it, the more chance he means to do you violence. If he barges forwards these "antenna" will tell you, and you hit hard. Again, this is much easier said than done - and you must also learn to strike from the angles this hand placement presents. They are also monitoring his natural weapons, being ready for his strike.

People will engage you in dialogue ("What the **** are you looking at!") etc. This dialogue can be used against them. Not only do we train to hit without telegraphing the movement as much as we can, we also engage their brain to distract them for a split second - and strike during the momentary window of opportunity this gives. Asking a question is great, especially a submissive one. If you say "Is there anything I can give you to persuade you to let me off?" he will think both "I have won" and "What can I get from this coward?". Thats the moment you strike. This question also acts as an "action trigger", helping keep you from hesitation.

All sounds simple and all looks easy. But it goes much deeper than this psychlogically. And, physically, you have to train the fence well in order to be able to pull it off when you are frightened to death.

One last thing. The Fence is not enough on its own. As Geoff so eloquently puts it you must "learn to hit fucking hard".

His people still train all the ranges. They still box, kick, grapple etc. But they aim for the one strike knockout, only falling back on their other skills if this fails.

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There. Be fair, I have tried to provide you with info. Please put any one liner flaming in the Trollshido section, and let us discuss this like adults. Positive and negative feedback welcome.

kismasher
2/13/2004 12:02pm,
right, and if I verbally distract someone and then punch them in the face that is a crime.

basically, "the fence" is a symbolic rep. of the point of no return?

this whole philosophy doesn't sit well with me, but if that's your thing then be prepared to spend some money on fines and or attorneys

The Wastrel
2/13/2004 12:09pm,
I think it's reasonable to put together a combined psychological/physical defense approach. And I've read before where Geoff has talked about putting people off-balance with odd questions. This all seems very applicable to bouncing, which I think he did for quite some time, no? Practicing from this sort of scenario is not a bad idea at all.

kismasher
2/13/2004 12:16pm,
Originally posted by The Wastrel
I think it's reasonable to put together a combined psychological/physical defense approach. And I've read before where Geoff has talked about putting people off-balance with odd questions. This all seems very applicable to bouncing, which I think he did for quite some time, no? Practicing from this sort of scenario is not a bad idea at all.


i agree with this wholeheartedly. for me the problem is the idea that i should be using the psychological tactic to gain some sort of opening to launch an attack. if i have the option to deescalate a situation from physical confrontation to solving a problem through communication, i would take it every time.

otoh, i have used psychological tricks to disract and gain control of someone before, but not with the intent of inflicting damage.

drunkenj
2/13/2004 12:23pm,
yeah- Geoff Thomson was a bouncer for many years, as bri said he is an excellent grappler, a judo and sambo coach, an aba affiliated boxing coach, and more

It's not about distracting them and than punching them in the face, its about making your opponents adrenalin kick in at the wrong time.... One of the techniques he uses is asking a would be attacker a non-threatening question (one of his examples is ' isnt your mum's name elsie?')


Geoff and his boys train in a very hardcore way---- 'straight from the training room to the emergency room'

HAPKO3
2/13/2004 1:10pm,
Very useful concept, IMHO. I don't understand how it warrants a whole tape (I would figure a 10 minute explanation with a couple of examples should be sufficient), but this is something everyone should know.

Bri Thai
2/13/2004 1:16pm,
HAPKO - Imagine the unitnitiated looking at Gracie Jiu Jitsu. They'd just see two guys rolliong around like school kids. They wouldn't appreciate what it going on. The Fence tape is packed with information. It is far more than what you see on the surface.

kismasher - the pre emptive strike is very legal in the UK. I have used it myself. But, like I said, his aim is to de-escalate.

katana
2/13/2004 4:18pm,
Renzo Gracie's book _Mastering_Jiujitsu_ has a section on a good defensive/non-threatening stance. It's basically a standard boxing stance and your hands are in front of your chest like you're praying. The idea is that if the guy swings or rushes you have the inside attack/defense which is usually stronger (underhooks, blocking) than just standing there with your hands at your side or pointing your finger belligerently at them escalating things. It also is less threatening because you aren't in an aggressive position while trying to talk the guy down. I think I agree with HAPKO3 though: Why do you need a whole tape/book on this?

Bri Thai
2/13/2004 4:24pm,
I already answered that one, and included reference to the Gracies in the answer........

No offence, but have you not had the tiniest suspicion that it may involve something more than just the position of your arms?

Rogue
2/13/2004 4:27pm,
You could make a tape just of the many situations to train the fence agaisnt. Not every guy that wants to beat your face will come up in a threatening manner. Some will walk calmly up till their chest is just touching your hands. What then? Add in using the fence against two people and all those variations and that's another tape. How to use the fence with an object in your hand. I love the fence and I even use a variation of it when standing at a bar.

kink
2/13/2004 4:35pm,
Originally posted by Bri Thai

kismasher - the pre emptive strike is very legal in the UK. I have used it myself. But, like I said, his aim is to de-escalate.

Ya if I was having an argument with someone and he went off and punched me in the face my friends and I wouldnt retaliate :rolleyes:

Bri Thai
2/13/2004 4:38pm,
I'm not sure I get your point.

kismasher
2/13/2004 4:58pm,
Originally posted by Bri Thai
I'm not sure I get your point.


ditto kink.

my original point was that pre-emptive strikes would most likely put you in the wrong here in the good old US.

Bri Thai
2/13/2004 7:47pm,
Are you sure? I know lots of Americans who believe that you have laws that are more amenable to defending yourself than ours in the UK.

But, in our country, if you have an honest belief that you will be attackesd, you can hit first.

Bri Thai
2/13/2004 7:48pm,
By the way - how can this be moved to "Off Topic"? I'm not talking about knitting here......

DRD
2/13/2004 8:48pm,
Everthing you do will be in either off topic or trollshido. You fool no one sonny boy. You are a walking ad for your boys so be glad you get to hang out with the men.