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jspeedy
1/31/2010 9:16pm,
I was just wondering about the old style of boxing where fighters punched palm up. Was this an actual method of fighting/boxing? Where did it come from? When did the "palm down" modern jab cross originate? Does anyone have video?
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:Rf8OEU_gc2l2ZM:http://www.joystickdivision.com/ChrisOldTimeyBoxingNES.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.joystickdivision.com/ChrisOldTimeyBoxingNES.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.joystickdivision.com/2008/04/introducing_the_division.php&usg=__UF3hw5CUK2t-Xg93fKdy3W-7MyU=&h=799&w=566&sz=223&hl=en&start=179&itbs=1&tbnid=Rf8OEU_gc2l2ZM:&tbnh=143&tbnw=101&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dold%2Bstyle%2Bboxing%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp %3D20%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26start%3D160) http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ERRIo9pqDL6OYM:http://blogs.warwick.ac.uk/images/jmiles/2007/03/23/conley-mike-22.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://blogs.warwick.ac.uk/images/jmiles/2007/03/23/conley-mike-22.jpg&imgrefurl=http://blogs.warwick.ac.uk/jmiles/monthly/0407/&usg=__NoZso8lFpa9xbK5kkhx4Njb5C2U=&h=402&w=300&sz=32&hl=en&start=1&itbs=1&tbnid=ERRIo9pqDL6OYM:&tbnh=124&tbnw=93&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dold%2Bstyle%2Bboxing%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp %3D20%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN)

I don't know much about boxing but a recent discussion with a kung fu practitioner has sparked some interest. This guy claimed the old school boxing palms up punching method exists in kung fu and is a stronger more efficient way of punching. Can anyone back up or dispell some information about this technique as applied to boxing. Sorry for the lame pics, just trying to add some visual to what i'm attampting to address.

DdlR
2/01/2010 12:51am,
http://cbd.atspace.com/articles/stance/boxingstance.html - note that this article is generally a little past its use-by date, and the author has expressed an interest in revising or re-writing it, but it does address the fist orientation issue. Also http://cbd.atspace.com/articles/breakyourhand/breakyourhand.html

The key issue is the difference between punching with and without protective gloves. N.B. that old-school boxers tended to punch with a vertical fist, rather than literally a "palm-up" fist, with the exception of uppercuts.

marcusdbrutus
2/01/2010 1:00am,
The key issue is the difference between punching with and without protective gloves. N.B. that old-school boxers tended to punch with a vertical fist, rather than literally a "palm-up" fist, with the exception of uppercuts.

To extend on that a bit, a decent amount of power in your punch comes from the roll of the shoulder. Because ye-olde boxers punched with vertical fists, they held their hands in that position to get the optimal 90 degree shoulder roll. Boxers today punch palms down, so they hold their fists vertical to get the same degree if shoulder rotation.

It's SCIENCE. Sweet science.

http://www.halolz.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/halolz-dot-com-teamfortress2-engineercosplay-backthefuckupimdoingscience.jpg

Conde Koma
2/01/2010 2:43am,
A little tangential: with the smaller MMA gloves, would it be better to revert to punching with a vertical fist? It does seem like we've seen some hand breakage happen.

GenericUnique
2/04/2010 6:20pm,
I recommend Championship Boxing by Jack Dempsey. Mostly because it's bloody good. It's also a nice midpoint between bareknuckle and modern boxing, and uses the vertically aligned fist with the lower three knuckles to jab.

BaronVonDingDong
2/04/2010 7:47pm,
I've often wondered if the C19th slang term "milling" (to describe boxing) comes from this stance and hand position. As in, when a fighter revolves his fists counter-clockwise when sizing up his opponent, it looks like a windmill, or the revolution of a mill stone.

Alternatively, it could just mean that when you're being beaten up, you've "been through the mill". OED says that it's also a term for breaking in horses.

DdlR
2/04/2010 8:10pm,
BaronVDD, I believe it does refer to the revolving action of the hands - qv "moulinet", "molinello" etc. for the action of flourishing a weapon circularly, also meaning "little windmill".

Have you joined the Bartitsu email forum yet?

BaronVonDingDong
2/04/2010 8:37pm,
BaronVDD, I believe it does refer to the revolving action of the hands - qv "moulinet", "molinello" etc. for the action of flourishing a weapon circularly, also meaning "little windmill".

Have you joined the Bartitsu email forum yet?

Ah, there you go - hunch confirmed. Thanks for that, DdlR, I was unaware of the "little windmill".

And no, I haven't joined the bartitsu group yet, but I shall. I just started Judo, so slowly piecing together my own neo-bartitsu skillset. I am timing it so that I should be ready to hit the mean streets at exactly the time I reach an appropriate age to carry a cane!

DdlR
2/04/2010 8:50pm,
http://www.bartitsu.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/steampunk-uncle-sam.jpg

Any time you're ready.

Permalost
2/05/2010 6:51pm,
Hmm, I never realized that "moulinet" and "mulling" had any kind of connection. Neat.

DdlR
2/06/2010 9:48am,
Yes, in the sense of "turning things over". That simile goes back a long way into WMA history, re. revolving or spinning actions with swords, etc.

MMAMickey
2/06/2010 10:26am,
I would be interested to see if a vertical fist could provide anything close to as much power on a straight right as a horizontal fist. I can't make it happen but then again I'm conditioned to the modern way.

It just seems to me that the sport has evolved and things such as vertical fists are being resurrected under the premise of the 4nc13nt d34dly. but then again, this is just my opinion I'm willing to accept im wrong if someone has evidence to the contrary, I don't get anything out of corkscrewing either but that doesnt mean people cant make it work.

DdlR
2/06/2010 5:22pm,
I would be interested to see if a vertical fist could provide anything close to as much power on a straight right as a horizontal fist. I can't make it happen but then again I'm conditioned to the modern way.

It just seems to me that the sport has evolved and things such as vertical fists are being resurrected under the premise of the 4nc13nt d34dly. but then again, this is just my opinion I'm willing to accept im wrong if someone has evidence to the contrary, I don't get anything out of corkscrewing either but that doesnt mean people cant make it work.

If anyone has a dynamometer handy and the resources to do a proper test, I think that would be a really interesting experiment. My instinct is that it's a percentages game; perhaps you can/feel freer to hit harder in terms of force applied if you're wearing gloves because you're proportionately less likely to damage your own fist with the strike. It could be argued that bareknuckle punches are optimized for sharp "cracking" strikes rather than knockdowns.

I don't think it has much to do with 4nc13nt d34dl1ne55 though, more a desire to "get it right" from the historical accuracy point of view.

MMAMickey
2/06/2010 5:40pm,
My instinct is that it's a percentages game; perhaps you can/feel freer to hit harder in terms of force applied if you're wearing gloves because you're proportionately less likely to damage your own fist with the strike.

So tech-wise would the vertical fist provide more support for BK? I suppose it prevents you punching across the body so much so makes a boxer's fracture less likely?

DdlR
2/06/2010 6:17pm,
Tech-wise we can demonstrate that an overwhelming majority of historical BKB champions and coaches advocated vertical fist punches to the face; they tended to reserve horizontal fists to soft targets (neck and stomach). I suspect that had more to do with preserving the un-gloved fist than with power generation, especially in that the body mechanics don't change much either way (drop-step, feet/hip/waist/etc. pivot and so-on); we're dealing with how that force is transmitted, and (IMO) what comes down to likelihoods re. a given type of punch damaging the punching fist, with and without gloves.

IMO the only significant advantage of the vertical fist is that it keeps the elbow of the punching arm aligned within the compass of the torso, rather than allowing it to turn slightly outwards. With that extra skeletal/mechanical support, a hard punch may be less likely to torque the punching fist inwards and downwards, always assuming that the punch lands squarely and primarily with the middle two knuckles. In practice it's always going to be a bit of a crap-shoot because the actual angle of successful strike against an active target depends on so many uncontrollable variables, which is (IMO) probably why the 19th c. boxers defaulted to vertical fists in these situations.

lklawson
2/08/2010 8:45am,
Hmm, I never realized that "moulinet" and "mulling" had any kind of connection. Neat.The action has some similarities but the intent behind the two are vastly different.

Moulinets with the sword (saber) are typically used to build power because of the weight of the weapon and to adjust the tempo (timing) of the strike to coincide with flying in and out from a measure (range) that helps prevent instant hits just by moving the hand (time of the hand).

Milling the fists in boxing has more to do with not telegraphing. At least two period authors clearly state that you keep the fists in constant motion so that the opponent doesn't know when you're going to strike based on the movement of the fists. Sort of the same idea as the Dog Brother's "Snakey Stick" applied to old school boxing. :)

Though a milling motion can sometimes be used to gain power, that type of usage is fairly rare and, imo, restricted to pretty much only one blow (one variation of the Rounding Blow). Though, ims, the Russians seem to use circular power generation a lot

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk