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gcat
2/05/2004 9:45pm,
I have spent (some would say wasted) a considerable amount of time the last week reading the related messages at the Bullshido and Attack Proof forums. Having just found the Attack Proof book about a month ago, I've spent even more time learning and working with the concepts within its pages. While being new to these forums and new with the Attack Proof/KCD ideas, I am not new with either forums or Martial Arts. So as payment to all of you for taking up my time with your interesting, humorous, and sometimes ridiculous comments I'll throw a few cents into the mix...

I said this in a previous post at Attack Proof:
"...and can say that having studied a large number of books related to the subject, and having practiced to the black belt level in a structured class environment, the Attack Proof book without a doubt has had the greatest impression on me of anything in the field that I have worked with. It is truly a remarkable work (in my opinion). I say this because this is, in part, one of things that many of those on the Bullshido forum are missing out on (not having really read the book or studied with those who practice the techniques within it.)"
"The fact that a large group of people who should be allies have ended up ridiculing and antagonizing John Perkins and this site should be a clear red flag that the approach taken at the beginning (and on a continuing basis) may have left something to be desired."
For the majority of that other post, I took the approach of "siding" mostly with the comments given by Bullshido posters (but with a sympathetic view toward those aligned with KCD). I did this because I do think there is value in attempting to understand the reaction that happened with Ken's initial post (and the comments made by those affiliated with KCD thereafter).

I won't be spending much more time at either of these forums--simply because I would rather be out in my shed doing "the work"--and while entertaining to say the least, these forums have little to do with that. What I will do before I leave is try and recreate a new message for the Bullshido visitors that will be more about substance and reason, rather than apparent boasts and wild claims. While I am positive that Ken's post was NOT meant to be about either of these things, that is, unfortunately, how the message was and is viewed by those who voice their opinions on the Bullshido forum. But for those who would defend the Attack Proof concepts (and their creator John Perkins) this entire debate took an immediate turn south--moving further and further from anything resembling a fair analysis of what KCD is about. So I'll try to do a little analysis for those interested--knowing I risk immediate alienation and ridicule. That doesn't really matter to me though--and doing this little analysis will give me a chance to process some of the concepts I've learned from the Attack Proof book. Beyond that, perhaps a few people will walk away from this post and realize that John Perkins is nothing if not a very talented man (though certainly with flaws) who has spent much of his life attempting to create a system of self defense that raises itself to the top of the proverbial class.

The Attack Proof book is divided into two major sections. The first part is based primarily on the WWII Close Combat principles, which are basically down and dirty attacks (in this case the attack always incorporates the defense--there is never a separate "block" then "strike" as this is believed to be wasted effort). This section also presents a first principle of self-defense--that of being aware (and making conscious decisions in order to avoid potential life and death situations.)

When the battle for life and death does occur there are no rules except one--to do whatever it takes to end up on the winning side of the coin. In this kind of "life and death" situation there is no concern about many of the things taught in today's "Martial Art Schools" (things like grappling/wrestling, high kicks, and chokes to name a few)--simply because all of these things take too long to do in a life and death struggle. There are too many variables that preclude using things that take away from the immediate objective of kill or be killed (things like potential weapon use, multiple attackers, and unknown environmental elements.) This doesn't negate the value of other Martial Arts--but it does make the statement that many Martial Arts are not primarily about self defense (something I am sure everyone on the Bullshido forum agrees with.) I am not talking about (and neither is John Perkins I believe) a bar fight, or a disagreement between friends that turns physical, or a "contest", etc--but an honest situation of danger where a person's personal space has been invaded in a way that threatens their existence.

The second part of book develops the concepts of "guided chaos" as a structured art called Ki Chuan Do (KCD). The four "primary principles" of this art are Looseness, Body Unity, Balance, and Sensitivity. I will not get into these concepts since they are covered very well in the book; but will say this: at first glance it is easy to look at many of the exercises in the book and think they are 1) too simplistic 2) not effective 3) just plain silly 4) (I'll let the Bullshido writers take it from here as I'm sure they can come up with an unlimited number of points here...)

Having said this--I will now say that what is actually in the book is a comprehensive workout to develop (in stages) a highly effective use of the body as a self defense weapon--from basic warm-ups through a range of exercises that are just brilliant (yes that is my opinion...) They are based on concepts that completely shift the common paradigms of Martial Arts practice. There are no structured "technique drills" like squat stance punches etc, ad nauseum--but there are exercises that develop the ability to use the attacks covered in the first section of the book from every conceivable angle and position. There are no repetitive forms (kata)--but there are exercises that are said to develop the same combat abilities these forms develop in much shorter times (having only had the book a month I can't vouch for this--but can say that intuitively I do accept this statement as probable.) Beyond this--once you get past the initial shock of the paradigm shift, the exercises are just plain fun (especially if you have had to deal with common repetitive martial art exercises.)

I've spent enough time with this--hopefully there are some things here that will help people to realize that Ken was only trying to share something that he feels is truly ground-breaking; with people he respects as peers. You can say what you will about John Perkins and the claims made on the website or on the posts that are part of this controversy--I have nothing to say about these things anymore. But I would hope that some of you will now realize that Ken is not an idiot--nor is he a cult follower of a dangerous man. He is just a Martial Artist who wanted to share his discovery with his associates.

The book is $20 or less. If you want to discover some ideas that could very well revolutionize how you train--you could try picking it up and actually reading it (and no that doesn't mean flipping through it in a bookstore) before you bash in the heads of those who are meant to be your allies.

Here's two little known facts:

1) The title was the publisher's idea.
2) The finger through the brain statement is actually a misnomer--in the book the event is described and there is reference to a doctor's analysis that what actually happened was that nerves in the eye cavity were pressed, which caused the assailant to go into convulsions. This is, of course, not at all hard to believe or understand, given that an enormous amount of the brain is devoted to visual ability, and the optic nerves are pretty big targets when you start digging with a finger... So while John Perkins use of words may be poorly chosen, the effect speaks for itself (at least in that one instance.)

punchingdummy
2/05/2004 10:36pm,
Why isn't there a word limit on posts?

blankslate
2/05/2004 10:43pm,
Where is Perfection anyway?

He is not an idiot. He relayed some information and we tried to investigate.

I and many others would still like to see this stuff proven. We can start again with a clean slate at any time.

Rashomon
2/05/2004 11:13pm,
Thanks for the analysis, GCat. I agree with you that there is a difference between a bar fight and a true life-and-death situation, such as someone mugging you on the way to your car or someone breaking into your house. I also agree with what I think I hear you and Mr. Perkins saying about these situations, that being to survive at all costs, even if it means killing or maiming the mo'fo'. (That's my thinking in a life-and-death situation, anyway.)

I think the concern that many here have is with the over-the-top salesmanship. These types of claims quickly send up the red flags.

I think that perhaps the biggest confusion is over the role of grappling. I don't believe, and I certainly hope others on here don't believe, that one should actually TRY to take a potential killer (life-and-death situation) to the ground. We do, however, realize that it is VERY difficult to keep someone off of you - to avoid the clinch, and, therefore, a possible takedown. Most of us, I think, believe in training to counteract this possibility. One good way is to learn clinching - Muay Thai and Judo are good for this, but I'm sure there are other arts as well. The point in this is to AVOID getting taken down if your attacker DOES get his hands on you. THEN, if your attacker somehow DOES take you to the ground, we believe that you'd better know some grappling or you're screwed. Personally, I would probably try to get back on my feet, but I know I would have a VERY difficult time doing that if the guy mounts me and I can't get him off. (I am assuming that my attacker is bigger and stronger than me.)

So, from what little I know of KCD, I do like its focuus on finishing people quickly. I can't remember if KCD has done this, but any style that claims to end ALL fights TOO quickly, like under a second, are going to meet with skepticism.

I am also curious about KCD's grappling - Native American, Eskimo, Polish, Martian, whatever. I don't care what you call it. If it is different and has value, I, and probably most people here, are open to it. Again, though, making over-the-top marketing claims are going to make ANYTHING a hard sell to Bullshido. Are there any video clips, pictures, or descriptions of the grappling on KCD's website?

So, in summary, I really think that maybe... just maybe... we all aren't as far apart as we think. It just that unverifiable outrageous claims and over-the-top marketing got us off to a bad start. Plus, the request for waivers in the original post did not help any. I think some people on here would have been up for some co-training and maybe some *friendly* competition, but when you start talking about waivers, that implies that someone's going to get hurt.

Oh... I still find the story about that one girl tossing a JJ blackbelt around after only a brief time with Mr. Perkins VERY hard to believe. That stuff doesn't help, either.

Deadpan Scientist
2/06/2004 12:27am,
Originally posted by gcat
Here's two little known facts:

2) The finger through the brain statement is actually a misnomer--in the book the event is described and there is reference to a doctor's analysis that what actually happened was that nerves in the eye cavity were pressed, which caused the assailant to go into convulsions. This is, of course, not at all hard to believe or understand, given that an enormous amount of the brain is devoted to visual ability, and the optic nerves are pretty big targets when you start digging with a finger... So while John Perkins use of words may be poorly chosen, the effect speaks for itself (at least in that one instance.) [/B]

Here's another little known fact:

1) There are NO PAIN RECEPTORS IN THE BRAIN. People do open brain surgery with patients fully awake. The optic nerves transmit visual information, not pain.

weechey
2/06/2004 12:49am,
Here's another little known fact:

1) There are NO PAIN RECEPTORS IN THE BRAIN. People do open brain surgery with patients fully awake. The optic nerves transmit visual information, not pain.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is sort of true. I'm reaching back now to medical school days, but the brain does not have the kind of pain receptors that respond to touch, or cutting. This is why neurosurgeons were able to have patients awake for certain types of surgery while stimulating the brain for mapping to make sure that healthy tissue is not accidentally taken out. However, the brain is capable of transmitting pain sensations when there is inflammation or stimulation of vascular stretch receptors. This is why people with meningitis, intracranial hemorrhages, or migraines will often complain of severe headaches (Worst headache of my life is the classic presentation of a sub-arrachnoid hemorrhage).

As for the "poking of the eye" debate, well the cornea of the eye has a tremendous number of pain receptors. This is why corneal abrasions, a common presentation in Emergency Rooms, are so incredibly painful. These abrasions can occur from just tiny specks of dirt that are very difficult to see. For fun, try this...go to a mirror, and touch the white of your eye with a Q-tip...most people can do this with no problem. Now touch the cornea of your eye -- LIGHTLY-- Unless there is some sort of brain damage there will be a "blink reflex"...this is an involuntary nerve reflex that is usually associated with a fair amount of discomfort. In the hospital we will use this to help assess the consciousness level of comatose patients (of course there are other tests that we use). In addition, although the eyeball itself may have relatively fewer pain fibers, the muscles and tissues that surround the eyeball are certainly not limited in pain fibers or sensation. I've taken care of a number of people who have had infections of the eyelid and/or the orbit...when someone has a very bad orbital cellulitis (infection of the eye that extends into the cranial cavity) there can be severe pain on motion of the eye because of stretching of the eye "muscles".

In short, pokes to the eyes hurt, and usually illicit a very powerful reflex response that is difficult to squelch.

Deadpan Scientist
2/06/2004 12:59am,
I never said they didn't hurt. I said the brain does not have pain receptors and that the pushing on the optic nerve will not cause pain (because of the push on the optic nerve, ignoring the surrounding nerves in muscle, etc)

They made it a big deal to push on the optic nerve. That's bullshido.

IronBuddha
2/06/2004 1:36am,
"I certainly hope others on here don't believe, that one should actually TRY to take a potential killer (life-and-death situation) to the ground. We do, however, realize that it is VERY difficult to keep someone off of you - to avoid the clinch, and, therefore, a possible takedown. Most of us, I think, believe in training to counteract this possibility."

Right...so in a life and death situation...if i'm the defender, i'm gonna have to learn how to stop the takedown cuz it's very difficult to stop..but i don't want to grapple...because it's life and death.....but the attacker will take me down since it is very difficult to stop and he's the designated attacker so it's ok. i had no idea there were designated attacker and defenders in these situations. i don't see why it's effective for the attacker to take down but not the defender...after all, they both are in the SAME situation....life...or........DEATH!

"In this kind of "life and death" situation there is no concern about many of the things taught in today's "Martial Art Schools" (things like grappling/wrestling, high kicks, and chokes to name a few)--simply because all of these things take too long to do in a life and death struggle."

hmm....funny how high kicks work in the ring....you'd think they'd block it since it is so slow. oh wait...it's not....life..or...DEATH!!!!! so i guess they don't care about getting knocked out...since they don't DIE!!!!! i've seen some very fast submissions too.....but i guess it's just sport fighting since life..or..DEATH..must happen in bullet time.

gcat
2/06/2004 9:30am,
punchingdummy writes: "Why isn't there a word limit on posts?"

There is--and (obviously) I did not exceed it. If I exceeded your attention level, feel free to not read my comments and then post anyway; that leads to the high level of debate that people like you are looking for in this forum.

Rashomon:

Thank you for the thoughtful reply! And I agree fully with your comments on "over the top salesmanship" (and have made similar statements at John Perkins forum site).

Regarding the grappling, it is my understanding that a main point of the "guided chaos" training is to increase the awareness and reflexive action of an individual so that any attempt to invade someone's space is met with a form of resistance that has the best possibility to negate the attempt before it can be accomplished. Another point to consider is that if a person is attacking you on the street (especially if you are in uniform) then chances are they will not use grappling techniques--because there are many other techniques that are more effective to lay you out quickly without having to tie yourself up like a pretzel with someone. So expecting to grapple (or training to grapple) is not a very efficient way to prepare for the worst. Besides the fact that most practiced martial artists of any level of proficiency would not be attacking someone on the street anyway...in general, criminals use other techniques and do not take the trouble or time to attempt these kinds of intense and hard to learn skills--it is much easier to use weapons or simple open-hand/feet attacks. Those training with KCD principles are taught first to avoid potential confrontations using awareness and intuition. And second they are taught to expect the worst; which implies weapons over open hand techniques and gangs rather than single attackers. Do you become invulnerable? Of course not! But you do become better prepared for a realistic threat.

"Are there any video clips, pictures, or descriptions of the grappling on KCD's website?"

Unfortunately, the website is basically a vehicle for selling. There is very limited real info there. This is one of the reasons for the stench that was raised when Perfection recommended it. There are a number of videos available, for a price--both taped seminars and scripted presentations--I haven't seen any of them so can't comment. But again--the book is cheap and has many of the concepts in it if you want to learn more. It is easy to prove or disprove the exercises yourself just by learning the concept behind them and just doing them.


Brandisimo

Please read the post I wrote if you are going to reply to it like you have. I said nothing about pain. Let me rephrase: Pushing on a large optic nerve in the eye socket (actually I believe the comment the doctor said was that the nerve was pinched between the attack finger and the bridge of the nose) is documented to have caused convulsions and neutralize a person attempting to kill (or at least severally harm) an on-duty police officer. Granted there is a large amount of pain associated with attacking an eye, but I didn't make any comments about pain one way or the other--just that the optic nerves are pretty big (at least compared to other nerves) and that pinching nerves leads to some known effects...

You are the one spreading the Bullshido in this particular instance--as you are misrepresenting my comments with your own screwed up attempts to inflame the situation once again...

Iron Buddha says:
"hmm....funny how high kicks work in the ring....you'd think they'd block it since it is so slow. oh wait...it's not....life..or...DEATH!!!!! so i guess they don't care about getting knocked out...since they don't DIE!!!!! i've seen some very fast submissions too.....but i guess it's just sport fighting since life..or..DEATH..must happen in bullet time."

It appears you are pocking fun at someone who believes that fighting in a ring is completely different from fighting in a situation where the intent is probably to kill you? Well that is not even worth debating frankly, since I believe most would agree that the two are TOTALLY different. If you think otherwise--well I'm sorry you feel that way; as it is a dangerous belief.

More than anything, for me, the whole point is that the concepts in the Attack Proof book provide a framework for me to practice in a way that is much more efficient to anything I've been exposed to in the past. If John Perkins uses some overstated claims--well I can forgive him that because of what I know having read the book. And before you all condemn him, the wiser of you might want to take heed of Perfections original attempt at sharing and find out what it is he is recommending to you before writing it off as nonsense.

kismasher
2/06/2004 10:01am,
Jesus,

I am not the kind of person that wants to stick my finger in someone's eye. I think I train to avoid that kind of crap.

Could you please elaborate on "guided chaos". That is pretty vague.

Onecardshort
2/06/2004 10:01am,
Gcat, while I admit to being less than enamoured with your style of writing, your points are well put and seem reasonable. I also have reservations about certain comments made by several posters on this forum, but the principal parties involved did not show any disrespect or threaten John perkins directly, all their comments were aimed at the sales pitch. I have also waded through the long posts and have to say that John Perkins forgot one of the main points about self defence, do not put yourself in danger in the first place. I would place inviting specific martial artists to a match complete with waivers as not in accordance with this premise.

Also, you cannot merely divorce yourself from marketing done in your name, especially when attempting to reach an often uneducated section of the public in order to teach them "life and death skills". Claims in this area should be backed up with rigorous proof and hyperbole removed or you are, in my opinion, essentially misselling and demeaning a very dangerous subject.

Deadpan Scientist
2/06/2004 10:16am,
Show me the documents.

The Wastrel
2/06/2004 11:02am,
because there are many other techniques that are more effective to lay you out quickly without having to tie yourself up like a pretzel with someone. So expecting to grapple (or training to grapple) is not a very efficient way to prepare for the worst.

I really am not going to listen to an evaluation of grappling techniques by someone who clearly knows nothing about it.

Anyone who tells you that one or even two or three techniques can completely shut down some other system is talking nonsense.

Grappling does not negate the practicality of eye pokes. It does not make your skin impervious to biting. No one who incorporates REAL grappling into their training will ever tell you that.

But please...practicing your eye pokes and bite berserking doesn't negate the effect of being dumped on your head, it doesn't mean you can't be choked, it doesn't protect your limbs from dislocation.

People seriously get way too excited about the little rationalizations and scenarios they can come up with in the the absence of ACTUALLY TRYING IT.

Ronin
2/06/2004 11:40am,
gcat,
while I see thw valid points you make, it APPEARS that you are looking at a grappling vs grappling situation or even a grappler vs striker, where BOTH involved are highly trained.
In THAT case, grappling can be time consuming.
But, and I can only speak for myself here, I have applied grappling in a matter of seconds to end confrontations.
It doesn't take much to dislocate a limb, even by accident.
No one well argue that EVERY technique has its place in the "when and where to apply" category.
I think the reluctance to "accept" certain claims is because those claims are NOT substanciated.

I have been poaked and bit and my response has always been to either do it back to him or the **** him up, bad.
I think that response is fairly common.

I do not agree that there is a TECHNIQUE or PRINCIPLE that can cancell out hard, constant and effective training.

DARKSON
2/06/2004 12:54pm,
I have been in street fights and worked at a bar and can vouch for the effectiveness of BJJ and muay Thai against multiple attackers with blunt objects.

I can also tell you that if a guy comes at you in the streets with a gun you probably wont get the change to poke him in the eye.

Omega Supreme
2/06/2004 1:50pm,
Okay Gcat I'm not in a very good mood right now so I'll try to handle this in a tactful manner. I already knew what Mr. Perkin's theories and ideas were. They are nothing new to this board. As a matter of fact I've argued his pov a few times here. There's nothing negating the facts here. The point is that Attackproof made some interesting boasts which I know aren't true. I laid down a challenge that said very specifically:

I expect to go 1 on 1 with one of your "typical" students, so that they may prove a point. I haven't said much above that. My point in making that statement is as soon as you define any parameters it'll negate Mr. Perkin's transparent attempt to prove the obvious:

Any person, no matter what their experiance, can be beaten in a multiple/street/combat/surprise fight. I even allowed for eye gouging, groin shots, and biting. He wasn't going to surprise me with anything. When you boast you can take a BJJ "professional", whatever that is, and a MMA fighter using two solid parameters it negates Mr. Perkins theories and ideas. You end up in the same mucka muck that many martial artist get caught up into; it's all theory until you've actually done it.

Please don't lecture me on how ignorant we might be, or how we might've missed out. In another life time I might've been friends with Mr. Perkins but I don't like the bullshit. I've been shot at, stabbed at, mugged, done MMA, Kickboxing and served in the military. Your Mr. Perkins is not spouting off anything that I've already heard, seen or done. Now due me a favor and stfu, I've got to go bury somebody right now.

To all my friends all bullshido. I won't be on here for the next few days, it is a time for mourning for me.

Peace,
Omega