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chinaboxer
10/14/2009 4:33pm,
IMO wing chun practitioners try to "force" the chain punch in, because they have to get close to be able to utilize their skills, but trying to do that often times makes them very vulnerable to a stiff counter.

doing the chain punch this way, makes it a "technique" and i always say that wing chun is not technique based, it is "concept" based. that's why Bruce Lee could adapt Boxing to fit within the confines of the wing chun concepts. His boxing didn't look anything like a traditional boxer, because he modified it so that he didn't contradict the core concepts of wing chun, which is why it looks and feels completely different than a boxer.

the chain punch should respond just like water trying to find the crack in the dam, it's the constant pressure that eventually finds the weak spot. it shouldn't be a "block of ice" which try's to force it's way through the crack. or else you will get "cracked".

Dr._Tzun_Tzu
10/15/2009 4:33pm,
Good video chinaboxer, especially about "chopping" off the forearm and using elbow power. I disagree with some of your "shoulder" stuff, i.e. to bring the humerus up the "shoulder" joint is involved (and your punches are all triceps and very little of this lift), and there is a deference between the shoulder socket and shoulder girdle, but your point is a good one. Just like in weight training you should pull your scapulas together and down for stability around the shoulders. I also like the slight forward hip movement visible showing the body is behind the hit structurally.



doing the chain punch this way, makes it a "technique" and i always say that wing chun is not technique based, it is "concept" based.

Actually all of your stuff like "3 triangles", "three sticks", etc are principles not concepts. They are to specific to be concepts. The Chun has way to many technical details to be considered "concept" based though it does have some concepts. I do agree that the principles and concepts of the chun can be applied to all MA though, which is what Bruce tried to do.


As to chain punching and this thread.

A Chun concept is to let the enemy close on you and to meet them once they have given away what they are doing. You should not chase someone around spinning chain punches in the air. (though I do this all the time in TD's, since EVERYONE I have sparred backs away and refuses to close). There are ways to close the distance for advanced students in WT, but there are few reasons to close on someone in a self defense situation.

Another Chun concept is that the enemy has only two arms to block with, so you should through 3 punches. They may grab the first 2 but if you free the first it has a high chance of not being blocked. The freeing arm movement at the end of the first form is very close to the chain punch movement and comes into play in this situation, freeing the third punch.

As Chinaboxer mentioned in action the returning hand is not dead, but sticking to their arm with a technique to control it, i.e. jum, fook, gum, pak, etc...so it usually is not just three punches. Ideally the returning arm stuff the enemies limb under the next return, creating a moment with their two arms under your one, freeing your other arm to strike freely.

A few more points: A chunner finishes you with elbows at this point, not more punches, a chunner will be chopping into your throat or hammering at your collar bones, not closed fisting your face, and a chunner primary target is often the solar plexus/sternum not the skull. I chunner will not just stand in stance but will move into your attack with a step or turn.

sidenote: Wooden Dummy has some techniques with both hands forward, wide, to control the shoulders and protect against attacks from the side, like hooks. This set of techiniques is what should be used when caught in the "closing distance" game, not chain punches, but what chun teaches beginners Wooden Dummy sets? WT has a variation of these in the fourth student grade and Boztepes Self-Protection set has both arms out like this for beginners, not the traditional Man/Wu. So it is wrong to consider the chain punch as a chunner counter part to boxing's jab or guard position.

There are many other details in this but I am just being general here for this threads discussion.

Conde Koma
10/15/2009 5:07pm,
You should not chase someone around spinning chain punches in the air. (though I do this all the time in TD's, since EVERYONE I have sparred backs away and refuses to close).

I'll close, my short reach hasn't really let me do anything else. I wanna see how counter-chain-punching works.

Sang
10/15/2009 11:33pm,
DTT, what defense does the Chun have against someone parrying your first chainpunch and coming right over the top with a KO power straight or lead hook? Also, what stops someone from ignoring the arm punches, dragging them across and using a bread and butter muay thai step up knee?

I'm looking forward to sparring a chunner, i fail to see how one good step up knee wouldn't automatically settle this "does chainpunching work" debate.

It is Fake
10/16/2009 8:34am,
I wish your IP was still fucked DTT. Look don't start this definition semantics bullshit again. You want to debate with chinaboxer fine. If you are going to start that "my definition vs your definition but I'm DTT and authoritative" I will boot all your posts out of this thread.

Then you and SwordSaintSSX can spout theory from "dihedral wings" to "my physics teacher said" all day long in trollshido..

Dr._Tzun_Tzu
10/20/2009 6:13pm,
I still have no access from any computer at my home so I am at my aunts house.

Short and sweet.

Consider that chain punching is a training tool so that we always have an arm to work with in chi sau and lat sau type drills. It insures you are always trying to get a hand back on top (protection) and it insures that your training partner always has a punch coming at them to work with (training can continue). You can see alot of chunners fail in videos on youtube with there instructors because they pause and/or stop punching. (This has a fighting application as well, i.e. freeing hand movement)

second, it is a series of single punches, each one is a full power strike. Ofcoarse we do not expect to be wearing gloves or wraps so out "full power" is under the impact force to break our hand. They are generally open palm strikes in application, the fist is just a byproduct of wearing protective padding on our hands in training.

I think this might relate to the Jun Fan comment above.

MMAMickey
10/20/2009 7:58pm,
the fact you are afraid of breaking your hand suggests to me that you may never have hit anyone

DerAuslander
10/22/2009 10:10am,
You can see alot of chunners fail in videos on youtube

You mean like the videos of fail that we saw of you?

Kambei Shimada
10/22/2009 10:52am,
second, it is a series of single punches, each one is a full power strike. Ofcoarse we do not expect to be wearing gloves or wraps so out "full power" is under the impact force to break our hand. They are generally open palm strikes in application, the fist is just a byproduct of wearing protective padding on our hands in training.

I think this might relate to the Jun Fan comment above.

I really dont think you have to worry about breaking your hand with an WT 'arm-punch' the powers not gonna be there.


As far as i'm aware hand wraps and gloves were'nt traditionally used in Wing Chun/Tsun.
Also vertical punches exist in alot of other Southern Chinese styles, I think its more likely that Chain punches derived from these and are not just a 'byproduct of wearing protective padding'. Kuen Sau is also in the forms of course.

MMAMickey
10/22/2009 5:54pm,
tbh in boxing we were taught a chun looking kinda punch for the short guys when we're inside to punch straight up under the chin, but we do it with our legs and hips. Only ever done it on pads but it seems ok if you're practically under their chin.. bt still hooks are obviously better at that range

Dr._Tzun_Tzu
10/26/2009 6:02pm,
You mean like the videos of fail that we saw of you?

Yes,......but not really as I generally have only followed people around as they back pedal and give only a single threatening lead hand. I really meant more the clips where students slow down and instructors proceed to demonstrate on them.


I really dont think you have to worry about breaking your hand with an WT 'arm-punch' the powers not gonna be there.


As far as i'm aware hand wraps and gloves were'nt traditionally used in Wing Chun/Tsun.
Also vertical punches exist in alot of other Southern Chinese styles, I think its more likely that Chain punches derived from these and are not just a 'byproduct of wearing protective padding'. Kuen Sau is also in the forms of course.

Well, I think you fail at the first part. We are not interested in breaking our hands so why would we develop a punch that creates more force then a hand can withstand? MMA on the other hand does reinforce the fist so they can develop great force and also can use a knuckle fist on the skull.

Secondly, Chun is meant to use open hand and knife hand type strikes on soft targets (throat and eyes) and the fist is only used low on the ribs. A closed fist is a safer way to train piercing finger (Biu Tze) strikes. As to whether the Ancient Chinese thought of using padded gloves or not is not really important, since we have used them for quite some time now.

I agree that the vertical fist is a common way to punch in CMA. There is a "Thunder Punch" combo in the third form that does punch the jaw and solar plexus at the same time in WT and since we train with a fist most of the time it is generally what we end up using in a fight. (edit: the fist I mean, not the thunder punch)

BackFistMonkey
10/26/2009 6:16pm,
Sorry to cherry pick your comments .


... There is a "Thunder Punch" combo in the third form that does punch the jaw and solar plexus at the same time in WT and since we train with a fist most of the time it is generally what we end up using in a fight.



Ah yes ... the good old double punch . Always an excellent technique to use as an example of good solid combat worthy techniques .

That is like using your videos or some childish , illegible and badly drawn diagrams to prove a point .

Dr._Tzun_Tzu
10/26/2009 6:30pm,
Sorry to cherry pick your comments .

Ah yes ... the good old double punch . Always an excellent technique to use as an example of good solid combat worthy techniques .

That is like using your videos or some childish , illegible and badly drawn diagrams to prove a point .

Hey, I also use quotes from some monkey like you in my sig bar....to prove points.

nnate
10/26/2009 7:12pm,
Sometimes I wonder what it's like to go through life with an overwhelming level of cognitive dissonance.

Hey DTT, I see on your youtube page that you claim Bas Rutton's lawyer had a gun when he met Emin Boztepe, if I read everything correctly. Quote:



His lawyer had gun. Bas was given the oppertunity to make the first move, he declined. atleast he showed up though. I couldn't find any corroborative material on the interwebs, so I was wondering if you could shed some light on this.

On the same page, you say that you have seen Emin Boztepe grapple medal winning wrestlers. From this :



I have seen him spar, I have seen him face off with walk in challengers, I have seen him grapple medal winning wrestlers. I have met an FBI agent he trains who recounted how Emin cleaned house on all the agents and Marine recon members in attendance at their first seminar in the early 1990's. so...
Which ones? What competitions did they win?

Maybe I should make another thread to ask the question.

It is Fake
10/26/2009 7:16pm,
This is headed for YMAS. Sorry nnate this is a repeat of an argument from 2006 possibly.

It is old and the story is growing from training an Agent to cleaning house. Save your time and your post count.

nnate
10/26/2009 7:22pm,
This is headed for YMAS. Sorry nnate this is a repeat of an argument from 2006 possibly.

It is old and the story is growing from training an Agent to cleaning house. Save your time and your post count.

Fair enough. I was only mildly curious, and search yielded nothing. Besides, I don't really feel enough interest to pursue the question.