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Prone
2/04/2004 7:50am,
Hey,

I've been doing Wing Tsun (Leung Ting System) for a while now and I'm curious what you think - from knowledge - what would help me become a better fighter in terms of cross-training.

It's an issue b/c I would know what I'd do if I had experience in let's say Karate of some art. But when I look at my system, it does not seem to work with any other art of whatever sort.

Hoping to train with MrMcFu and Asia somehow and somewhen will get new ideas but when I train with friends (2nd Dan Wado-Ryu, Brown Belt Gojo-Ryu, Muay Thai, Modern Arnis and a Judoka) I always feel it's not possible to mix those styles with my main system Wing Tsun.

What do you think, I really am interested.

Thanks in advance,
Prone

Ippatsu182
2/04/2004 8:31am,
Well, I would try some kind of grappling art like san shou, judo, Brazilian jiu jitsu, or wrestling. You probably already have a decent standup game, so it'd be a good idea to learn how to defend yourself when you're on your back. By the way, what's your purpose for cross training? Do you want to try mixed martial arts, or do you just want to improve your standup game?

LOVED2BLOVED
2/04/2004 8:38am,
judo or ajj or bjj or wrestling

MrMcFu
2/04/2004 9:04am,
I have an idea for you Prone.

Come to my Shooto class. It will be on Thursday at 18:00, and we will probably go over basic no-gi grappling. You can try it out for like 8 Euros or something for a day pass. That is a good class because you can try anything during the sparring sessions, provided your partner agrees. If you want to meet me there earlier, there is free time in the boxing area where we can practice techniques or do some extra sparring.

One of the things I noticed with WT is that it didn't see to me to work very well on the ground. Maybe I was just too stupid to make it work.

For example, WT usually has the shoulders square. This makes it hard to generate alot of power without moving. Alot of people don't mind getting a chain punch to the top of the head if it means they can get a double leg. WT, with all of its concentration on not grabbing your opponent, moving forward, and staying square, doesn't seem compatible with one of the most basic grappling moves - T3h Spr4wl.

In Elgaubstrasse, there is also a BJJ club that rolls twice a week for 16 Euros a month. The teacher is a very good blue belt who competed in these same championships.

http://www.bjj-hamburg.de

much love
2/04/2004 9:05am,
bjj, boxing, muy thai, and maybe shuai chiao

WingChun Lawyer
2/04/2004 9:25am,
Judo is a must if you want to improve your stand up game. If you are more concerned with groundfighting, BJJ is probably the best choice.

Prone
2/04/2004 9:29am,
@all: so it seems grappling is the way to go. Thx for the advice.

@MrMcFu: I hope I can make that training tomorrow. I work until 17:30h so coming there withhin half an hour and getting dressed and shown around will be a tough challenge ;) I will try to talk my boss into letting me go earlier. Maybe I can convince him by a little sparring...

Since Elbgaustraße is closer by I will try both schools. Thanks for the info.

Prone
2/04/2004 9:30am,
Originally posted by WingChun Lawyer
Judo is a must if you want to improve your stand up game. If you are more concerned with groundfighting, BJJ is probably the best choice.

Do you do anything other than WC?

WingChun Lawyer
2/04/2004 9:31am,
Oh, and Prone. I did watch a Muay Thai class, I thought that their footwork and their kicks are not incompatible with wing chun (although I must say I wasn´t impressed by their punches) - what is your opinion on wing chun + muay thai?

Prone
2/04/2004 9:53am,
@WCLawyer: I train with Muay Thai ppl and I think that most of the kicks are usefull, the punching business and elbows just don't work the way I want them. But that's just b/c I'm not good and maybe my MT friends aren't either.

@Ippatsu182: Always eager to learn and having a better standup game always is extremely helpful. I just like to link ideas. That's why I'm getting hated on by some traditionalists (who I usually beat ;) but that doesn't matter).

Problem is: when I go to a school I'd like to have the opportunity to learn, not to be judged by my background. While getting a beating isn't bad, the conclusions some ppl draw are bad. Hey, we beat Prone, he does WT so WT is bad...

We'll see. I guess I'll look into BJJ.

Prone
2/04/2004 9:57am,
@MrMcFu: Damn, the training schedule of that school at elbgaustraße is exactly when my WT training is... :(

PHILBERT
2/04/2004 10:24am,
Aikido might be a good bet, as it uses the redirection of energy like Wing Tsun does. Since WT does not emphasize joint locks until much later (if at all), then Aikido might be a good thing to look at for throws/locks. What level are you at in WT? Have you reached Level 10 and began the in-depth training of counter-grappling? Or are you just picking up the basics of counter-grappling right now and haven't recieved the in-depth stuff?

Look into grappling arts like BJJ and Judo though. When I took WT, my instructor showed me some escape techniques for like arm bars, the mount, etc. When I was at a bookstore, I looked at a copy of one of the Gracie BJJ books (I think the one with Royler) and found alot of the escapes they used were 95% similar to what I learned in WT escapes. The main difference I saw though was they did not trap the arms like WT does. I think the counter-grappling in WT might be based off BJJ or Judo, then again, after the first few UFC, suddenly this "oh, by the way WT students, we have counter-grappling which we never taught you" appears. Almost as if it was developed over night by the students who use to do Judo or other arts.

Prone
2/04/2004 11:22am,
I just started ground work. With emphasis on WORK as of course I've been on the ground. That's what happens in Sparring. Using the WT principles worked most of the time but I have had no chance to fight advanced grapplers as I'm not an advanced WT man :D

Did you do WT as I see your primary style is Wing Chun which can be completely different...

Shuma-Gorath
2/04/2004 12:04pm,
The only things I've been able to use from two Wing Chun classes have been Pak Sau and that guard-splitting entry that looks like the Hangman strike. The latter is not bad for getting a clinch. Other than that, Karate and Wing Chun are hard to mix.

I'd recommend looking for Wrestling/JJ/Judo, since your close/clinch range should already be solid.

Freddy
2/04/2004 2:05pm,
" Other than that, Karate and Wing Chun are hard to mix."

Well you could still add the kicks. The blocks of WC is okay (why not mix it with karate?). Its not really that hard to mix.

The Wastrel
2/04/2004 2:31pm,
Greco-Roman Wrestling.