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Ben Grimm
10/06/2009 6:56am,
Sparring is essential, but so is knowing when to apply the technique. A lot of WC people don't know when to chain punch. They start too early. Chain punching is a finishing technique not a starting technique.

Tonuzaba
10/06/2009 6:58am,
Sparring is essential, but so is knowing when to apply the technique...
How else to know than by sparring?

Ben Grimm
10/06/2009 7:18pm,
Very true, but some people just turn sparring into a slugfest.

Kintanon
10/06/2009 7:22pm,
And those people get tooled by people who have any idea what they are doing. Anyone trying to make sparring into a slugfest will get murdered in short order by skilled people. If you can't handle slugfesting noobs then there's something wrong with your art or your training, or you.

Ben Grimm
10/06/2009 10:12pm,
That's it.

Southpaw
10/07/2009 7:59am,
Chain punching is a finishing technique not a starting technique.

I disagree w/ this...at least against competent fighters. While I've ended fights by chainpunching, it wasn't against people who were very good.

The only real application I have found for chain punching is as a distraction technique to get the other guy to raise his hands to his face.

Asriel
10/07/2009 8:37am,
I disagree w/ this...at least against competent fighters. While I've ended fights by chainpunching, it wasn't against people who were very good.

The only real application I have found for chain punching is as a distraction technique to get the other guy to raise his hands to his face.

You could always try using a jab?

Kovacs
10/07/2009 8:40am,
You could always try using a jab?

Add a good cross and a chain punch falls apart.

Southpaw
10/07/2009 9:24am,
You could always try using a jab?

Sure. That works too. You can also throw hot water in their face to get their hands up. It all has the same outcome.

matrixdutch
10/07/2009 9:32am,
box / kickbox in long range, chain punch to enter, and finish with with elbows, knees, headbutt, or the deadly grapple / choke. Using the chain punch to have the other guy throw his hands up to use as a reference point for getting in deep to finish is good

TenTigers
10/07/2009 10:23am,
box / kickbox in long range, chain punch to enter, and finish with with elbows, knees, headbutt, or the deadly grapple / choke. Using the chain punch to have the other guy throw his hands up to use as a reference point for getting in deep to finish is good

This is good, albiet a little limited if people are seeing the chain punch only as a distraction or set-up.
I believe too many people judge the chain punch who have not actually been properly instructed in its method, or worse still, not at all, and only have videos or books on which they form their opinions.

Many people think it is simply a snapping of the elbow and therefore lacks power. Others feel it lacks power due to the fact that it doesn't turn the body when it strikes. I would agree that it does not pack the power of a good ping choy (reverse punch or cross) but when the practitioner knows how to throw it with correct body mechanics-and at the correct range, it can be extremely effective.

Body mechanics-there is a method in Southern Chinese Martial Arts referred to as Foa-Chum,Tun- Teow =float-sink, swallow-spit-which describes the sinking of the body, sort of a crunching like an acordian, or a bellows. There is a connection to the core muscles and psoas-those of you with a backround in exercise physiology can better explain. The action of the push pull is directly connected to this as well, combined with the rooting of the stance. They all work together. If one of the components is missing, then it falls apart, which is why most WCK practitioners you see, demonstrate chain punches that although they have a bit of a snap to them, are for the most part, weak and useless. In this case, your viewpoints that they are a set-up, or distraction is warranted.

Range-as someone stated before, too many people throw chain punches from too far away. At that range, it is easily caught, the attacker's movements are predictable, and the person is open to many counters. It is also weaker by the fact that the impact is at the very end of the strikes-full extension, which is useless.
The correct range is toe-to toe, and closer. Sifu Duncan Leung is quoted as saying about chain punches,"Once I'm in your horse, you won't stop me."
Not only does this allow the punch to go through the target, it also allows for the backward movement of the target, enabeling continuation and follow-up.
Another thing this range allows the fighter is the ability to trap. Not with his hands so much, as with his closeness and forward pressure, you shut down your opponent by not giving him room to free himself up.

Chain punces are simply a tool, and as such, only effective if used properly and under the proper conditions.

TenTigers
10/07/2009 10:27am,
Hey..I'm kinda doing something...I guess...sorta..

matrixdutch
10/07/2009 11:10am,
yes, but Duncan Leung has the close the gap first...easier said then done..and if he's going to use forward momentum with the chain punches, it was still be limited in power. Sure shifting with chain punches standing still can generate power, but power will be lost once you dash in with the chain punches. And chain punching standing still is useless against a live opponent. Unfortunately chain punches in general regardless of the pracititioner is just a weak technique. One of the many problems in Wing Chun. I did 10 years of it.

fingermouse
10/07/2009 11:47am,
It depends on how you do them though. If you are trying to throw 80 punches a second like lot of the crazy stuff you see on youtube you aren't going to get much penetration and I can't imagine there'd be much power behind it especially if you bicycle your arms like some of of those guys do.
If you are firing them from close enough range into the other guys centre of mass
(ie with a decent bend in your elbow still at contact), with your elbow down, stepping in and applying some hip movement as well then you can get still get a pretty decent amount of power in your shot. I don't have a problem with the punch doe right doing some damage and leaving you in a poistion for the next one, thats what all the bag work padwork wall bags etc is for.

The hard part for me is getting into the right range against someone who knows what he's doing especially if he knows what you're trying to do.
Most of the application I've seen for this stuff seems to rely on timing the other guy and stepping in on him as he comes in to launch his attack.

The downside is that the range is a lot more like hooking range so you have to get through jab and cross range and time it so your opponnent isn't going to just back-pedal. If you beat him to the punch, sweet! if your arms clash then that gives you an opening, but there is a risk against a cross if your timing is off - or if the guy steps outside of you, also if you start too far out or if the other guy is expecting you to come forward, I think there might be a window for a good left hook too. Plus you have to travel further to hit than he does with his jab

I'm having a lot of trouble dealing with southpaws (as an orthodox) at the moment in boxing - which is a topic in itself I guess - but the clash of jabs that you often get in an orthodox/southpaw fight might be a "bridge" of sorts that you could use to get into effective WC punching range?

anyway back to work...

TenTigers
10/07/2009 6:45pm,
"yes, but Duncan Leung has the close the gap first...easier said then done.."
Not the topic. closing the gap is one thing, chain punches another.

"and if he's going to use forward momentum with the chain punches, it was still be limited in power."

Forward momentum with chain punches uses the whole body and has a great deal of power. Not maybe as much as a ping choy, but still very strong-and again, we are not speaking of using chain punches to close the gap-NOBODY does this.

"Sure shifting with chain punches standing still can generate power, but power will be lost once you dash in with the chain punches."

What I described was not shifting and standing still, it was body mechanics used in all chain punches. Of course when you add the shift it is even more powerful, and when you move it is more powerful.

"And chain punching standing still is useless against a live opponent."

Who would ever advocate something like this? It is nonesense. NO Wing Chun teacher would ever teach you to do chain punching standing still against a moving opponent. Where are you getting this ?

"Unfortunately chain punches in general regardless of the pracititioner is just a weak technique.
One of the many problems in Wing Chun. I did 10 years of it."

Ten years and you never learned to chain punch correctly? Or how the structure works? Or how to apply it?
No offense, but the problem does not lie in the system.

DerAuslander
10/07/2009 8:41pm,
You don't use a blast to close the gap, you use it once you've entered.

Can it be done with power? Yes. Should you focus on using it as a finishing technique? No. Not at all, and especially not the way the majority of Wing Chun teachers tell you to. I'm sorry 10 Tigers, but if most teachers say something, the problem is with the system. That's one of the reasons the WC methodology for the blast was abandoned in Jun Fan.