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Rivington
9/21/2009 3:14pm,
http://www.leitaichampionships.com/Rules.html

Some things jumped out at me, mostly in positive ways:

shuai push-hands allows for hard pushing and pulling, sweeps, double grabbing, and grabbing the legs above the ankles.

Their san da rules bar knockout-power punches to the head, require six/seven oz. rather than boxing gloves, and allow for qinna (as much as one can get in ten seconds anyway, I suppose) and even standing taps for locks. It doesn't look like the tap ends the bout though -- the locker gets three points and the match continues.

I'd be interested in seeing the matches under these rules. I'm in favor of sanda using MMA-type gloves in general, and (re)introducing na. What does everyone else think?

It is Fake
9/21/2009 3:23pm,
That is really interesting. I'll have to go through it more in depth before, I comment further.

Conde Koma
9/21/2009 3:26pm,
I always wanted to see how MMA fighters did on leitai dias, rather than a cage. It would prevent stuffing your opponent into a corner and using the cage to wear them out (a la couture).

plus, it'd be fun to see people get thrown off the platform.

Ming Loyalist
9/21/2009 3:38pm,
moving in the right direction anyway.

i take issue with the following:

1) face cage headgear/no strikes to the face

i understand that they want to protect the fighters, but no strikes to the face AND face cage headgear? WTF?

2) lack of KO power strikes allowed (what does that even mean?)

this is just like having "medium contact" at kung fu continuous sparring tournaments. everyone fights all out until someone gets hurt and *then* the guy who hurt him gets DQ'd. bullshit. does not work. let people hit each other!

Rivington
9/21/2009 5:26pm,
Given the gloves, I wonder if someone will end up with a finger caught in the face cage. Yowch!

1point2
9/21/2009 5:34pm,
Ming, WW and others have mentioned the potential for hand injuries resulting from using small handgear with hard, heavy headgear.

I bet the "no full contact to the head" wink-winkery is due to legal issues. Furthermore, I wager that if they didn't say what they said, they would be subject to athletic commission rules either as MMA or boxing.

Ming Loyalist
9/21/2009 7:12pm,
in my experience it usually comes down to the cost of insurance for full contact fighting, and that's why they don't want face punches or KOs.

and yes open finger gloves and face cages are dangerous and lead to many injuries on the lei tai every year. hell the face cages *themselves* are dangerous (when the helmmet compresses and that damn cage is driven into your nose) and totally obstruct your vision, leading to not even seeing the kick that floors you.

liokault
9/22/2009 5:12pm,
If you like that I give you: http://www.pro.kuoshu.co.uk/pro_rules_p2.html

Two rule sets, leitai for both, MMA gloves for pro set, 4oz (I didn't even know they did 4oz gloves) for the amteur. Knees elbows for both and ten seconds on the ground for the pro set with a further 10 seconds if anything is actually happening.

I do have certain reservations, such as how you qualify as pro and the quoted prize money (its not on the web site, but the figure quoted verbally to me a few months back was so big that it can't be sustainable), but its going in the right direction.

Gino
10/16/2009 4:07pm,
I just think it's great that they're posting the rules in advance! I went to a tournament not long ago where the refs seemed to make up rules as we went along. It was very frustrating.

Also it seems to indicate there will be one ref, like they do it in China. Most American tournament tui shou is micromanaged to death, usually by a gang of four refs. I think one ref is enough.

I like the fact that double grabs are allowed, and I don't see any prohibition against touching your opponent's back, which I also like. I also like the clear statement that hard pushes and pulls are allowed.

So all in all, I think the rules are pretty good.

PointyShinyBurn
10/17/2009 5:58am,
(I didn't even know they did 4oz gloves)They sell Everlast ones in Sports Direct labelled as 'Sparring Gloves', awesomely enough for those of us who enjoy the thought of the barely-trained breaking each other's faces/hands.

MMAMickey
10/17/2009 7:05am,
bigger gloves-no face cage.. face cages are awful awful things

Jack Rusher
10/17/2009 9:55am,
shuai push-hands allows for hard pushing and pulling, sweeps, double grabbing, and grabbing the legs above the ankles.

I finally got around to reading the full rules for shuai tui shou at this event.


Two 3 minute rounds with a 1 minute break in between each round. One extra round will be given if a tie breaker is needed.

The goal in this event is to place your opponent on the floor of the competition surface or to throw or push them off the competition surface.

Judges will be looking for proper execution of standing grappling, throwing and take-down techniques, and sweeping.

Once the match has begun then the competitors are allowed to freely move about the competition surface.

Points are gained through causing your opponent to fall to the ground within the competition surface or to fall off the competition surface. When any other part of a competitor's body touches the ground other than the feet, this is considered a fall. When any part of the body is touching the ground outside of the competition surface, then this is considered falling out of the competition surface.

The hands can touch any part of the body below the neck and above the ankles. Double grabbing is permitted, but not gripping or pinching of the clothing, skin, or hair. Bear hugs, over hooks, and under hooks are also permitted. No obvious attempts at scratching is allowed. Small joint manipulation and pressure point attacks are not allowed as well. No striking of any style is permitted, but strong pushing and pulling are allowed. There should be no impact at all. Trapping is also allowed.

Leg techniques like sweeping and tripping are allowed. Overt attempts at kicking, however, are not allowed. Stepping on an opponent is not allowed as well.

I would happily compete under these rules.

Ronin.74
10/17/2009 10:14am,
Isn't this really nothing more than a modified version of the Kuoshu event leitai rules set? I mean the Kuoshu leitai events allow for everything this competition does with smaller gloves, head contact, knees, elbows and no shin guards, so I'm not seeing how this is really anything revolutionary. Am I missing something?

Ming Loyalist
10/17/2009 10:25am,
Isn't this really nothing more than a modified version of the Kuoshu event leitai rules set? I mean the Kuoshu leitai events allow for everything this competition does with smaller gloves, head contact, knees, elbows and no shin guards, so I'm not seeing how this is really anything revolutionary. Am I missing something?

depends which event you are talking about. the one rivington posted, allows standing locks, unlike the baltimore lei tai event, but doesn't allow KO power shots to the head (that ruins it IMHO.) of particular interest in the one rivington linked to are the push hands rules, which allow for "the real" push hands we have been discussing in the CMA forums at length.


http://www.leitaichampionships.com/Rules.html

Some things jumped out at me, mostly in positive ways:

shuai push-hands allows for hard pushing and pulling, sweeps, double grabbing, and grabbing the legs above the ankles.

Their san da rules bar knockout-power punches to the head, require six/seven oz. rather than boxing gloves, and allow for qinna (as much as one can get in ten seconds anyway, I suppose) and even standing taps for locks. It doesn't look like the tap ends the bout though -- the locker gets three points and the match continues.

I'd be interested in seeing the matches under these rules. I'm in favor of sanda using MMA-type gloves in general, and (re)introducing na. What does everyone else think?

liokault linked to a ruleset that also includes some groundwork. which is a huge step forward for CMA full contact rulesets.


If you like that I give you: http://www.pro.kuoshu.co.uk/pro_rules_p2.html

Two rule sets, leitai for both, MMA gloves for pro set, 4oz (I didn't even know they did 4oz gloves) for the amteur. Knees elbows for both and ten seconds on the ground for the pro set with a further 10 seconds if anything is actually happening.

I do have certain reservations, such as how you qualify as pro and the quoted prize money (its not on the web site, but the figure quoted verbally to me a few months back was so big that it can't be sustainable), but its going in the right direction.

Rivington
10/17/2009 10:31am,
Isn't this really nothing more than a modified version of the Kuoshu event leitai rules set? I mean the Kuoshu leitai events allow for everything this competition does with smaller gloves, head contact, knees, elbows and no shin guards, so I'm not seeing how this is really anything revolutionary. Am I missing something?

The push hands rules are the bigger deal, actually, as it means a move away from kindly embracing your opponent and hoping his foot moves a centimeter or two to actually engaging in competitive tuishou. See:

YouTube - Pushing The Issue (Part 1): Tai Chi Push Hands Competitions (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNAV_AurtKI)

Interestingly, one year ago, Bluesiytangco (http://www.youtube.com/user/Bluesiytangco) asked Tom Kagan, who is hosting this vid on his YouTube account, "if there any tournaments in the USA that utilize Chinese style push hands rules?"

I guess the answer was sufficiently motivating that he launched this new competition with Chinese rules. One presumes he didn't find any pre-existing.

Standing tap was most interesting in the sanshou rules. At least to me.

Also, I don't remember anyone saying that these rules were "revolutionary." "Interesting" was the term I used.

Ronin.74
10/17/2009 11:09am,
I understand the Push hands rules set is much different (read as better). I thought that the Baltimore leitai rules allowed standing locks.