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MBriefcase
8/28/2009 4:26pm,
I'm beginning iron palm training, and I was told that instead of using si sou fang (hand washing liniment) before practicing, I could just use jow. Is this legit? Or should I scrape together the cash for the fang every month?

Ming Loyalist
8/28/2009 5:37pm,
I'm beginning iron palm training, and I was told that instead of using si sou fang (hand washing liniment) before practicing, I could just use jow. Is this legit? Or should I scrape together the cash for the fang every month?

1) what does your sifu say? is he the one to tell you to just use jow, or was it from a training brother? i have heard some crazy garbage out of the mouths of training brothers (and even some sifus, but i digress.)

2) there are a lot of formulas out there, what are you using?

3) what is your IP training regimen? what contents in the bag (mung beans? steel shot? tapioca pudding?) and in what way are you progressing?

4) forum member dale dugas knows more about IP training than anyone on the forum, and in the past he has stated that using the proper IP liniment is very important. i hope he will join in on this thread as well.

It is Fake
8/28/2009 6:11pm,
To add hopefully, you aren't doing this on your own. If so, you need to stop.

No, we aren't going to get into another debate on whether it works or not. This is based on any MA training, you can't do it all by yourself you need proper guidance.

Matt Phillips
8/28/2009 6:23pm,
Try contacting member Dale Dugas. That's his area.

Snake Plissken
8/28/2009 6:36pm,
Read This Thread (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=64970)

MBriefcase
8/28/2009 7:12pm,
My sifu told me I could use jow before, during and after practice. He was told that by the guy who makes his jow, so I sensed a bit of a vested interest there. My jow formula is as follows:


Fu Zi--30 gm

Ban Xia--30 gm
Di Gu Pi--60 gm
Bai Bu--60 gm
Long Gu--30 gm (optional--this is heat-treated cow bone (dragon bone))
Tian Nan Xing--30 gm
Hong Hua--30 gm
She Chuang Zi--30 gm
Chuan Xiong--30 gm
Hua Jiao--15 gm
San Qi--15 gm
Xue Jie--30 gm
Ru Xiang--30 gm
Mo Yao--30 gm
Ding Xiang--30 gm
Dang Gui--30 gm
Da Huang--15 gm
Add separately after cooking:
Camphor/Borneol Crystals--15 gm
Menthol Crystals--15 gm


My IP regimen involves stretching, warm ups and qi gong, then 45 minutes of hitting the bag, then 15 minutes of massaging my hands with the jow. I tried PMing Dale, but I don't have sufficient user privaleges, so I was hoping he'd join this thread.


I read as many threads on IP as I could find, but I haven't read the one Snake linked yet, so I'll get to that. I'm not so much interested in whether or even how IP works (I've slogged through the many threads involving that) just if it's ok to replace the si sou fang with jow.

Mor Sao
8/30/2009 5:48pm,
Brothers,

Just back in from a weekend long seminar and Im bushed, I will chime in again soon.

Until then great to see others training iron skills.

Mor Sao
8/31/2009 9:32am,
My sifu told me I could use jow before, during and after practice. He was told that by the guy who makes his jow, so I sensed a bit of a vested interest there. My jow formula is as follows:


Fu Zi--30 gm

Ban Xia--30 gm
Di Gu Pi--60 gm
Bai Bu--60 gm
Long Gu--30 gm (optional--this is heat-treated cow bone (dragon bone))
Tian Nan Xing--30 gm
Hong Hua--30 gm
She Chuang Zi--30 gm
Chuan Xiong--30 gm
Hua Jiao--15 gm
San Qi--15 gm
Xue Jie--30 gm
Ru Xiang--30 gm
Mo Yao--30 gm
Ding Xiang--30 gm
Dang Gui--30 gm
Da Huang--15 gm
Add separately after cooking:
Camphor/Borneol Crystals--15 gm--NIX THIS HERB
Menthol Crystals--15 gm--NIX THIS HERB


My IP regimen involves stretching, warm ups and qi gong, then 45 minutes of hitting the bag, then 15 minutes of massaging my hands with the jow. I tried PMing Dale, but I don't have sufficient user privaleges, so I was hoping he'd join this thread.


I read as many threads on IP as I could find, but I haven't read the one Snake linked yet, so I'll get to that. I'm not so much interested in whether or even how IP works (I've slogged through the many threads involving that) just if it's ok to replace the si sou fang with jow.

Hey there,

I wanted to let you know that there are many different methods to train Iron Palm, some of the harsher than others. Using a wash before you train your hands, the Sai Sou Fang is not limited to just IP but can be used in Iron Claw training as well.

I have 2 formulas that can be used as a pre soak for training of the hands not matter the program to be used. I sell one and could be coaxed to sell the other....

But back to the question about NEEDING to use the Sai Sou Fang versus just Iron Palm Medicine/Jow. IMHO you do not NEED to use the wash, but they are nice to use in the colder months to help warm up the energy and the tendons/ligaments of the hands before tapping the bag.

Also hitting bags for long periods of time is rather silly. You do not need to beat your hands for 45 minutes if you are a beginner.

I train using 200 strikes, that is all I practice on my shot bag. that is 50 palm strikes, 50 back of the hand, 50 knife edge and 50 short palm strikes. I do that number as long as it takes me.

I started with ten reps per hand position and worked up to the 50 each.

No need to just stand there and hit your hand when you can get it done with less reps and less time spent.

But that is something you would have to discuss with your teacher.

Who do you train with by the way?

The formula given is decent but I would nix the last two ingrediants and add two others that are not included. Add 30 gr of Shen Jin Cao and 24 gr of Hai Feng Teng, these two herbs will help open the channels and help the energy and blood flow better making that formula work better.

Feel free to ask questions or email me off forum at [email protected]

MBriefcase
8/31/2009 5:41pm,
Dale, thanks for your reply. Unfortunately, I've already made my jow, and it's aging in my basement. Would it still be beneficial to add the two herbs you mentioned? And is the soak you mentioned the Red Phoenix Soak sold on the CDIA Web site?

Mor Sao
9/01/2009 4:21am,
Yes, you can add the herbs I mentioned to any Iron palm jow to help open the channels.

And you are correct that the red phoenix is the soak I sell.

Let me know how I can be of service.

Matt Stone
9/01/2009 5:39am,
Dale,

I'm curious... I no longer study "internally," as I frankly no longer believe in the existence of qi in the manner most typically discussed, represented, or offered by the IMA community.

That being said, with your regimen (having done a little IP "back in the day"), how long does your training period last?

Our school did a number of physical training exercises to develop muscular strength in the hands/forearms, but the striking training was, for the most part, 100 days of 50 reps slap/back of the hand/knife-edge of the hand. "Crane's beak" strikes and claws into the bag were also included, but semi-optional. For 100 days - bag full of corn or beans; next 100 days - sand; last 100 days - steel shot (no lead). We had a formula (I'd post it, but my notes aren't with me here in Baghdad) that we'd apply before, during, and after training.

Just curious what your thoughts on the subject might be...

Good training.

Mor Sao
9/01/2009 10:47am,
Matt,

first off let me say Thank You for being over there and doing what needs to be done.

IP programs usually last 100 days to set the foundation that will then be used to train the skills.

I was taught to train the 200 strikes(50 per anatomical weapon) twice per day for one year and then again for another year once a day. There are some serious amounts of qi gong before you stand for a period of time then tapping the hands on the bag. I started with shot from day one. You can do the gradual method as well. Medicine was applied before during and after as well.

So two years to set the skill into your brain/body/spirit. After that you can train it whenever you like.

I too has some issues with people who say they can use Qi to move people, things, etc. Qi is married to blood and if you can increase the blood flow to areas of your body you are increasing the Qi flow. that said it does not help you to hit harder, move people or kill for a distance. you need to train the structure of the body and learn the routes of motion that will deliver said energy to a target.

You can train IP all you want and if you do not train all the other skills needed as a competent Martial Arts practitioner, you will not be able to use it.

Be safe over there brother. Let me know if you ever pass through Boston on your way back.

Would love to buy you a beer.

Matt Stone
9/01/2009 1:33pm,
first off let me say Thank You for being over there and doing what needs to be done.

Well, that's awfully nice of you, but I certainly didn't volunteer to come over here... I mean, I did (since I was given a choice whether to deploy or not, so I chose to accompany my platoon mates), but my unit had orders, so I really didn't...

As for "doing what needs to be done," if by that you mean "disciplining the shitheads in our own forces that can't manage to play by the rules, and as such distract everyone else from doing what needs to be done," then that's certainly what I do. Otherwise, my opinion only, my contributions to "the war" are minimal at best.


IP programs usually last 100 days to set the foundation that will then be used to train the skills.

I was taught to train the 200 strikes(50 per anatomical weapon) twice per day for one year and then again for another year once a day. There are some serious amounts of qi gong before you stand for a period of time then tapping the hands on the bag. I started with shot from day one. You can do the gradual method as well. Medicine was applied before during and after as well.

So two years to set the skill into your brain/body/spirit. After that you can train it whenever you like.

Yeah, mostly the same concepts I was brought up with... We'd do a butt-load of qigong to "move the qi" to the hands and arms, then wash with jow, then slap bags, do other exercises to strengthen the hands/arms, wash with jow again, more qigong, call it a day.

I did the slapping for about a month without qigong and though I don't believe in most qigong things these days, I did get a case of the shits that remains perhaps the single nastiest experience I've ever had...


I too has some issues with people who say they can use Qi to move people, things, etc. Qi is married to blood and if you can increase the blood flow to areas of your body you are increasing the Qi flow. that said it does not help you to hit harder, move people or kill for a distance. you need to train the structure of the body and learn the routes of motion that will deliver said energy to a target.

See, I can remove qigong from the equation entirely and arrive at "proper structure and generation of power = what people used to call qi or qi-jing" and not need the metaphysical stuff at all... I've actually gotten better in what I do by eliminating the qigong... Ah, well, to each their own. Many paths and all that...


You can train IP all you want and if you do not train all the other skills needed as a competent Martial Arts practitioner, you will not be able to use it.

Amen. There were folks back in the day who really thought all they had to do was slap one of those fancy bags full of beans that AWMA used to sell... Too bad their structure, base, and power generation were crap to begin with. Tough hands didn't help 'em at all...


Be safe over there brother. Let me know if you ever pass through Boston on your way back.

Would love to buy you a beer.

Consider that offer accepted... I might have to make a trip that way just to get the beer!

Be well, friend.