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RealManOfSteel
6/08/2009 11:28pm,
Hello, my first post on Bullshido!

I have started martial arts, and while I enjoy the concept of MA, the current course leaves a lot to be desired. I won't go into the specifics, but there is a LOT of horse stance and the like.

I am not looking for any 'career' in MMA. I want a Combat system, that has roots in, or is heavily based on a well known style like BJJ or MT and Judo. This is because I only have the time and money for ONE course at this time.

I have been heavily looking at something like Kali, Krav Maga, Silat, Combat Sambo, Systema (specifically the combat system the Spetznatz use, and the WWII Combative system. I know the consensus of how little the military use MA, but the fighting system the spetznatz use in particular, seems comprehensive, effective and I'm sure the dastardly russians used it more than most.

It would be great if it contained fundamental techniques and sparring, to allow better cross training and sparring with mates of mine that do kickboxing.

And before you ask, I am not just doing MT as I feel it limits itself as a stand alone system more than others. And I do realize that no system is perfect on its own. I just want a system that is a good starting point, and is easy to learn.

Here are my (loose) criteria.
-Good standup, preferably with strong roots in MT
-Good groundwork, like BJJ
-Good take-downs (not that important) but as not many people can fight on the ground, taking it there when I am seems logical.
-Defense in impractical situations, like sitting down, or on a bus
-No forms/ few forms. Just the techniques, and advice.
-HEAVY emphasis on sparring, both in traditional one-on-one fights against a skilled (ie a trained fighter.) and against things like multiple and armed opponenents.

I think its a real poser, that I can't solve on my own. Any and all critiscism and advice needed. Also, links to good schools in these fighting styles (regardless of what you think about my philosophy) would be great.

Pretty lengthy and complicated first post right?

Carlos13th
6/08/2009 11:40pm,
Something that has BJJ and Muay thai style fighting in it?

Sounds like MMA to me

Blue Negation
6/08/2009 11:49pm,
1) find a MMA gym and take BJJ, wrestling, boxing/muay thai there (probably easiest option)

2) find a shooto or shooto-related gym: Jeet Kune Do gyms with connections to Inosanto and/or Erik Paulson are your best bet here.

3) combat sambo, such as that offered by New York Combat Sambo.

Ike
6/09/2009 12:04am,
Train in Muay Thai and BJJ...

Listen, don't fall into the false trappings of the street versus sport mentality. The fact of the matter is that often the most effective self defense techniques/methods are to be found in boxing, kickboxing, wrestling, and grappling. A good MT/MMA/BJJ school will not only teach you sound mechanics/techniques in strikng and grappling, but it should give you a lot of opportunity to spar. What makes a fighter capable is his or her ability to act under pressure/threat of force, and that is developed and honed through sparring.

But if the thought of going to an MMA or Muay Thai/BJJ gym bothers you too much (and contrary to the stereotype, they are not mostly full of douchebags), and you want something of a comprehensive system with sound teaching and training methods, I would suggest looking for the nearest Progressive Fighting Systems Jeet Kune Do/Kali school. Unfortunately, certified instructors are a bit hard to come by (they must be certified under Paul Vunak), and finding a nice school with all the equipment/facilities is harder still (more than a few PFS JKD/Kali operate MMA gyms now as it's where the money is). Furthermore, you might end up in a class with lazier folks who don't want to train hard enough because they think street defense is just about eye jabs and biting....

The PFS brand of JKD/Kali emphasizes proper body mechanics and technique in weapons, striking, clinch, and ground ranges. Really it's an amalgam of Filipino weapons, Filipino boxing, Thai boxing, Western boxing, Greco-roman wrestling, Filipino Wrestling, Brazilian Ju Jitsu, and Sambo. However, what you learn varies by teacher as each is encouraged to bring his or her own twist on the art as they draw on their own experience and skills (some have a background in Chinese Martial Arts, others are wrestlers, etc). In the end, PFS JKD/Kali is really just a framework or stepping stone in your MA development. What comes after that? More Muay Thai and BJJ....

There are some complaints, though-- considerable time is spent on Filipino stick drills and wing chun-like trapping drills that have no basis in reality (which many instructors will admit). And you may run into an instructor that doesn't allow full contact sparring due to liability. And you won't learn how to knife fight-- because there is no such thing.

Let me warn you about Krav or any other scenario-based self-defense methodology-- some of the assumptions going into these techniques are absurd, and most of the techniques are taught via compliant drills. Trying to perform a gun disarm or a mid-air knife disarm as taught in such techniques is liable to get you killed. Also, there are many Krav classes that are essentially cardio kickboxing classes, so be forewarned. If you go the Krav route, keep an eye out for Bullshido.

I'll close as I began: Train in Muay Thai and BJJ. You can always cross train in some RBSD art later if you want to develop environmental awareness and dirty tactics. The two reasons you're likely to lose a fight, strength and speed being equal, are unfamiliar range (not knowing how to punch, kick, grapple, fight with weapons) and conditioning (lack of physical endurance, pain tolerance, stamina), and a good MMA school will help you with both.

RealManOfSteel
6/09/2009 12:08am,
Allow me to be more specific.
I live in Wheelers Hill in Melbourne. I am not looking for MMA. Just something that gets its standup and grappling TECHNIQUES from things LIKE MMA.

I really really really don't want to sound like a 'Secret Military Deadly Fighter Newb' but MMA, while it is more realistic than many other fighting sports, is still a fighting sport.

I am looking for something that can take the effective, universal techniques, and combine them into a Combat fighting style. That is, not a one-on-one fight with rules. That kind of thing doesn't happen often, outside of MMA.

Information and links to combative styles like the ones in the OP would be great. MMA schools are not what I am looking for anyway.

RealManOfSteel
6/09/2009 12:16am,
Thanks Ike, my previous post was not adressed at you, as you posted it while I was writing.

I do not believe that MT/ MMA fighters are douches, to the contrary, I also believe that they are quite good at preparing you for fights, as perception, sparring and energy are cornerstones of the professional fighters training.

In fact I am sure that many RBSD/ Combative type folks are lazy idiots who are simply too lazy to train hard. But I am willing to look long and hard for a good school. Do you know anything about Systema? (I mean the compilation of Combat Sambo, and Spetznatz GRU, not the general term)

Correct me if I am wrong, but BS should be more common in mainstream arts like Karate and the like, because a lot of BSers are in it for the cash, and Karate is more recognised, it is thus an easier product to market?

Hence the need for Systema/Kali. If you know anywhere good near Wheelers Hill I would be very grateful.

Ike
6/09/2009 12:17am,
Ok, let me say this again, as someone who has been in fights before, as someone who has been through "sport" and "street" (including Krav, albeit briefly) styles:

There is no sport vs street.

There is only fighting. Just because you wear gloves and fight shorts does not make it unrealistic.

The only difference between sport and street is tactics, which you can easily learn.

For the most part, if you go to a "the streets/combatives" school/program, you will be wasting time and money on low-percentage techniques. There is more or as much bullshit in RBSD (including Systema-- see Omega's posts on the topic) as there is in McDojo TMA. RBSD is the cool **** now, which is why there is money to be made off of it.

Many people are thinking the way you are now-- myself included. It only takes a few rounds of sparring with a "sport" fighter or a street incident to open your eyes to the realities of proper MA training.

RealManOfSteel
6/09/2009 12:22am,
ATTENTION! WARNING! ATTENTION!
UPCOMING MILITARY SYSTEM POST! (Not what you think though)

I searched for Systema on google, something else came up, which apparently is related.

It is called Spetsnaz GRU hand-to-hand combat style. I am not interested in it per se, I just want reputable information on it, so I know whether to discard it.

RealManOfSteel
6/09/2009 12:22am,
argh it happened again

Ike
6/09/2009 12:23am,
Ok, forgive me if the tone sounded off-- I was writing a reply to your first reply.

In any case, take a look at what some have said about Systema. I have no experience with it, but I do integrate Sambo into my grappling.

Also, let me warn you about Kali-- in my experience, I've come across some Kali schools that only taught patty-cake with sticks. You have to find a Kali school with a weapons as well as an empty hand component that both allow for sparring. Otherwise, it's just attribute training.

RealManOfSteel
6/09/2009 12:27am,
Ok, so RBSD is the cool **** now. My point about obscure martial arts remains. System/Kali is obscure. Don't know about you, but if I was going to market my 'Learn to defend yourself realistically against threats' program, I would call it 'Real Self Defense, secret SAS fighting style or whatever.

Surely I should not discount something that is effective because its the fashion? If you know any reputable schools, that would be great still.

I think there is a street/sport argument, but not a big one. Just that in the street, anything goes, and your opponent can catch you unawares, and you don't know how he will fight. He may pull a knife while grappling, or unleash 'haymaker fu'

RealManOfSteel
6/09/2009 12:29am,
Yeah I had a look at Kali, it is really weapons based. I don't want to be arrested for pulling a machete on someone or pushes me:)

I will have a look at Systema.

I am definitely going to cross train in BJJ or MT later, whatever this system lacks, so everybody wins.

RealManOfSteel
6/09/2009 12:34am,
OK, here is a link to a few instructors websites that teach near me.
http://www.systemaaustralia.com/Instructors.html
Anyone think they look like BS, or had any experience?

Blue Negation
6/09/2009 1:00am,
OK, here is a link to a few instructors websites that teach near me.
http://www.systemaaustralia.com/Instructors.html
Anyone think they look like BS, or had any experience?

They have absolutely no mention of sparring of any kind. They have hints of terrifying "too deadly!" There's a lot of name dropping, loads of unsubstantiated claims to have trained military personnel [edit: by seminar instructor - main instructor seems to make little or no claims at all] and no mention of any kind of proof of actual skill for any of the instructors - not even Judo or BJJ rank for the guy they bring in for seminars (despite claims to have become "simply amazing" in kenpo by training in Judo and boxing and so on) - no competition record....

in short, I would stay the hell away from that gym unless you want to Live Action Role Play as a modern spetsnaz operative instead of actually train.


Plus, even if it somehow is legit despite every drop of evidence pointing the other way, even credible Systema guys describe it as a system that serves you best once you are competent in a less theoretical fighting system, like boxing or wrestling.

RealManOfSteel
6/09/2009 1:01am,
Anyone know any differences between combat sambo and systema?

Blue Negation
6/09/2009 1:07am,
Ok, so RBSD is the cool **** now. My point about obscure martial arts remains. System/Kali is obscure. Don't know about you, but if I was going to market my 'Learn to defend yourself realistically against threats' program, I would call it 'Real Self Defense, secret SAS fighting style or whatever.No.

Just as small children like to pretend to be superheroes, or little girls to be princesses, many (mentally) adolescent men like to pretend to be heroes out of a terrible, horrifyingly unrealistic Steven Seagal movie. "Secret military fighting style" is a way to feed into this fantasy, and clever swindlers have keyed into this. That is why you see it. Claiming that something is a secret military style does not make it so - if it was, how would you expect to ever really find it?


Surely I should not discount something that is effective because its the fashion?You are presupposing that it is effective without any evidence to the contrary. In this modern age of skepticism, presupposing that a martial art is effective because of its marketing and how it talks about itself is similar to believing that the snake oil elixir does indeed cure all that ails you because that's how the swindler talks it up.


I think there is a street/sport argument, but not a big one. Just that in the street, anything goes, and your opponent can catch you unawares, and you don't know how he will fight. He may pull a knife while grappling, or unleash 'haymaker fu'

No. This topic is way overdone. Look it up, it's all over this site. Suffice to say: if you can handle a trained opponent who knows how to efficiently punch (BOXING), haymakers won't bother you - and it is just about impossible to pull a knife from under the mount position, which is where a mild degree of competency in grappling will let you put any untrained opponent without a large strength advantage.