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sil lum fighter
5/18/2009 3:14pm,
I just wanted to give a little info on Shaolin five animal style kung fu (such as striking methods) and why I think it is a good style to practice for self defense despite what some people say.

The five main original animal styles of Shaolin are the tiger, crane, snake, leopard, & dragon. They are usually taught in this order with tiger having the easiest techniques to master and dragon style being the more advanced and hardest to learn. The main strikes used in these styles (not in any particular order) are the tiger claw, hammer fist, crane beak, chicken wrist strike, snake head strike, leopard paw strike, dragon claw, dragon tail strike, and dragon kick to name a few. There are other animal styles within Shaolin such as eagle, mantis, & monkey.

If one is trained correctly in Shaolin (sil lum in Cantonese) then he/she can use there knowledge to defend themself. By training correctly I mean that the sifu has shown and demonstrated when and how to use these techniques during a fight. And that the sifu has not let the student resort back to a kickboxing way of fighting. Although some fighting will inevitably look like kickboxing from time to time. Using the animal strikes during sparring sessions you have to start out slow and pulling some of the strikes but as the student gets more advance he/she can go harder. Some strikes will always have to be pulled during sparring such as strikes to the eyes and throat but these type strikes can be practiced on sand bags or similiar type filled bags. These type strike may require the student to condition their hands/fingers. A good sifu will teach the student the proper way to condition their hands for these type strikes and also teach the student how to use different jows for healing.

Here is an example of how kung fu can and will work against a grappler. From a standing position you get into it with a grappler. The grappler ties you up in a collar to elbow tie up like you see in wrestling. From this point you have one hand on or around the grapplers neck. It is very easy to strike the throat or eyes with an open hand strike using the finger tips or leopard paw to the throat from here because of how close the hand is already to the target. I guess what I'm saying is you have to evaluate each situation and see what will work for you in that particular situation.

Ming Loyalist
5/18/2009 3:20pm,
I just wanted to give a little info on Shaolin five animal style kung fu (such as striking methods) and why I think it is a good style to practice for self defense despite what some people say.

The five main original animal styles of Shaolin are the tiger, crane, snake, leopard, & dragon. They are usually taught in this order with tiger having the easiest techniques to master and dragon style being the more advanced and hardest to learn. The main strikes used in these styles (not in any particular order) are the tiger claw, hammer fist, crane beak, chicken wrist strike, snake head strike, leopard paw strike, dragon claw, dragon tail strike, and dragon kick to name a few. There are other animal styles within Shaolin such as eagle, mantis, & monkey.

If one is trained correctly in Shaolin (sil lum in Cantonese) then he/she can use there knowledge to defend themself. By training correctly I mean that the sifu has shown and demonstrated when and how to use these techniques during a fight. And that the sifu has not let the student resort back to a kickboxing way of fighting. Although some fighting will inevitably look like kickboxing from time to time. Using the animal strikes during sparring sessions you have to start out slow and pulling some of the strikes but as the student gets more advance he/she can go harder. Some strikes will always have to be pulled during sparring such as strikes to the eyes and throat but these type strikes can be practiced on sand bags or similiar type filled bags. These type strike may require the student to condition their hands/fingers. A good sifu will teach the student the proper way to condition their hands for these type strikes and also teach the student how to use different jows for healing.

Here is an example of how kung fu can and will work against a grappler. From a standing position you get into it with a grappler. The grappler ties you up in a collar to elbow tie up like you see in wrestling. From this point you have one hand on or around the grapplers neck. It is very easy to strike the throat or eyes with an open hand strike using the finger tips or leopard paw to the throat from here because of how close the hand is already to the target. I guess what I'm saying is you have to evaluate each situation and see what will work for you in that particular situation.

i have a feeling that this thread isn't going to go very well for you, but let's take this one step at a time.

"shaolin 5 animal kung fu" is a pretty vague description, and applies to hundreds if not thousands of southern chinese kung fu systems. care to give us some more specific info on what you are talking about?

also, how long have you been studying in your current system? do you consider yourself an authority in it?

i don't want to jump to conclusions about you, but you are setting off a lot of warning flags.

1point2
5/18/2009 3:21pm,
Wow, I've love to see a BJJ guy try his "grappling" against THAT!

It is Fake
5/18/2009 3:41pm,
Hmmmm
Here is an example of how kung fu can and will work against a grappler. From a standing position you get into it with a grappler. The grappler ties you up in a collar to elbow tie up like you see in wrestling. From this point you have one hand on or around the grapplers neck. It is very easy to strike the throat or eyes with an open hand strike using the finger tips or leopard paw to the throat from here because of how close the hand is already to the target. I guess what I'm saying is you have to evaluate each situation and see what will work for you in that particular situation.

Please find a willing grappler and try this theory out. Also, grappling is about control.My friends, that were wrestlers, say "these dirty tactics" are taught and defended against.

So really, the "I will eye poke, gouge, rake, thumb" in the face area is old. I'm not saying it can't work but, it isn't as easy as all CMAers tend to claim.

sil lum fighter
5/18/2009 3:44pm,
i have a feeling that this thread isn't going to go very well for you, but let's take this one step at a time.

"shaolin 5 animal kung fu" is a pretty vague description, and applies to hundreds if not thousands of southern chinese kung fu systems. care to give us some more specific info on what you are talking about?

also, how long have you been studying in your current system? do you consider yourself an authority in it?

i don't want to jump to conclusions about you, but you are setting off a lot of warning flags.

Sure. I have been studying Sil Lum Kung Fu since 1984 under Master John Dufresne (9th level black sash). He studied under Great Grandmaster "John" Wing Lok Ng here in Lexington Kentucky at Four Season United Kung Fu Academy. Ng learned his kung fu from his grandfather whose name I do not know back in mainland China. When I say shaolin 5 animals I am talking about the styles of tiger, crane, snake, leopard, and dragon. And yes I realize that this thread and me will come under a lot of fire from the mma guys. I kinda expected it. But my question to you and to any other person who has doubts about kung fu working is this.......Why do you think that the techniques that work when perpendicular (standing up) wouldn't work when horizontal (on the ground)???

It is Fake
5/18/2009 3:48pm,
But my question to you and to any other person who has doubts about kung fu working is this.......Stop right there. These two points don't belong together. Many people, thanks to Sanda, Sanshou, and Lei Tai, have changed their mind about kung fu.
Striking Kung fu.




Why do you think that the techniques that work when perpendicular (standing up) wouldn't work when horizontal (on the ground)???

A complicated science called physics.

Uncle Skippy
5/18/2009 3:53pm,
Why do you think that the techniques that work when perpendicular (standing up) wouldn't work when horizontal (on the ground)???

Will eye gouges, groin strikes, and other 'vital area' strikes do something? Sure.

Wrestlers/BJJ/"ground fighters" train in controlling space and movement. When you 'lock up' with a grappler/wrestler and you don't have as much experience in such a situation, you will be at a disadvantage right off.

So you start using 'vital area' strikes to try to even the playing field, even try to get the advantage.

What is to keep the wrestler/grappler from doing the same though? This is where this argument, which has been presented dozens and dozens of times on here, falls apart.

No wrestler/grappler is going to just sit there and try to hug you to death when you are trying to strike their eyes. They'll retaliate.

Now, the wrestler/grappler has the advantage because they've trained to fight in the situation you're in (locked up standing or on the ground) and they are throwing strikes as well.

I think that you think they have a 1-track mind (grab, tug, hug, pry, etc...). They aren't going to just sit there and hold on while you go for their eyes, throat, etc. They will move, they will RESTRAIN, they will choke, and they will be going for your eyes, throat, etc.

Ming Loyalist
5/18/2009 3:59pm,
Sure. I have been studying Sil Lum Kung Fu since 1984 under Master John Dufresne (9th level black sash). He studied under Great Grandmaster "John" Wing Lok Ng here in Lexington Kentucky at Four Season United Kung Fu Academy. Ng learned his kung fu from his grandfather whose name I do not know back in mainland China. When I say shaolin 5 animals I am talking about the styles of tiger, crane, snake, leopard, and dragon.

ok, but what's the style called? i train in a shaolin 5 animal style, and have lineage back through wong fei hung, but the important part is that my style is hung ga or as i like to call it, hung fist chinese boxing. it's not tiger style or dragon style, etc. it's hung ga. your style has a name, and you should know it, especially if you want to post about it online.


And yes I realize that this thread and me will come under a lot of fire from the mma guys. I kinda expected it. But my question to you and to any other person who has doubts about kung fu working is this.......Why do you think that the techniques that work when perpendicular (standing up) wouldn't work when horizontal (on the ground)???

but you didn't expect to be attacked by kung fu guys. that was your mistake.

the reason we don't think the techniques would work? we tried them. against competent grapplers. have you?

Permalost
5/18/2009 4:50pm,
But my question to you and to any other person who has doubts about kung fu working is this.......Why do you think that the techniques that work when perpendicular (standing up) wouldn't work when horizontal (on the ground)???
I think you meant vertical vs horizontal. Anyway, let's look at it from another perspective: a white belt in BJJ, who only grapples from the knees to start, tells you that if his art works on the ground, it also works standing up. What would you think?

nomamao
5/18/2009 11:00pm,
Here is an example of how kung fu can and will work against a grappler. From a standing position you get into it with a grappler. The grappler ties you up in a collar to elbow tie up like you see in wrestling. From this point you have one hand on or around the grapplers neck. It is very easy to strike the throat or eyes with an open hand strike using the finger tips or leopard paw to the throat from here because of how close the hand is already to the target. I guess what I'm saying is you have to evaluate each situation and see what will work for you in that particular situation.


http://neohemas.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/5f2a.jpg?w=275&h=340

I'm not sure if you meant this above or this below.

http://www.scientificwrestling.com/members/images/257a.jpg

But, please let me know where the death blow would be dealt and how.

Whacker
5/18/2009 11:30pm,
Interesting thread. Posting to subscribe. And one small thing I'd like to respond to.


So you start using 'vital area' strikes to try to even the playing field, even try to get the advantage.

What is to keep the wrestler/grappler from doing the same though? This is where this argument, which has been presented dozens and dozens of times on here, falls apart.

No wrestler/grappler is going to just sit there and try to hug you to death when you are trying to strike their eyes. They'll retaliate.

I agreed with your post with the following exception regarding the text I've selected. Vital point striking is far from an end-all be-all solution to any fight, I think we'd all agree to this. However, I will say though that someone who has a very good grasp of "vital" or "pressure" or "grind" points, whatever we want to call them, has had good training in knowing how and when to hit them in alive situations, and has working knowledge of what kind of reactions they will most likely elicit is going to have certain advantages than the person who doesn't going into the clinch.

As to the point regarding the grappler retaliating by striking, this is certainly true and even to be expected. Doing so would generally require one or both hand(s) releasing grip in order to do so. As such this could confer an, not THE, advantage back to the striker, who could possibly use that opportunity to break the clinch and regain distance.

Of course this is all hypothetical discussion at best, every situation is different and generalizing is not always a good idea, hence why I've tried not to be definitive with my statements. What I've said those has mirrored some of my experiences in school under pressure, but then again it is against my peers, while we do train in grappling and groundfighting it is not our strongest point, so take this as ye will.

Lastly please note I'm not saying that the Kung Fu duder is going to wipe the floor with a grappler because of this, or that it's an effective "anti-grapple", or any nonsense like that. Nothing can replace good grappling skills and experience when the rubber hits the road. I'm just focusing on the point that superior striking knowledge and ability can be far more effective than some folks who may be unfamiliar with it realize.

Rivington
5/18/2009 11:42pm,
But my question to you and to any other person who has doubts about kung fu working is this.......Why do you think that the techniques that work when perpendicular (standing up) wouldn't work when horizontal (on the ground)???

Because power issued from the hands comes ultimately from the legs.

Get on your knees and throw a punch. Can you generate as much force as you could if standing?



Really?


Will you video it so I can see?

It is Fake
5/18/2009 11:50pm,
Interesting thread. Posting to subscribe. And one small thing I'd like to respond to.



I agreed with your post with the following exception regarding the text I've selected. Vital point striking is far from an end-all be-all solution to any fight, I think we'd all agree to this. However, I will say though that someone who has a very good grasp of "vital" or "pressure" or "grind" points, whatever we want to call them, has had good training in knowing how and when to hit them in alive situations, and has working knowledge of what kind of reactions they will most likely elicit is going to have certain advantages than the person who doesn't going into the clinch.You are nitpicking.

Uncle Skippy
5/19/2009 12:33am,
However, I will say though that someone who has a very good grasp of "vital" or "pressure" or "grind" points, whatever we want to call them, has had good training in knowing how and when to hit them in alive situations, and has working knowledge of what kind of reactions they will most likely elicit is going to have certain advantages than the person who doesn't going into the clinch.

I guess my best response, as IIF said, would be to find a wrestler/grappler and try it out. Have the other person wear goggles so you can use force in your eye gouges. I know it would suck to finger-stab the goggles, but I can't think of another way to allow eye gouge attempts :-P. They would still be very jarring with goggles on.

It should become very apparent that the game is not one of finding the vital areas but rather freeing up your arms and preventing him from taking you down. His job is to steal any space you might create, use gravity to his advantage, and control your limbs, head, and center of mass.

He will break down your posture, keep you off your base, constantly be 'feeling' for weight distribution and shifts, etc. If you do free an arm, he also has a free arm with which to arm drag/cross face/single-necktie/punch/etc.

At this point, I can't type anything more than 'try it out.' Ming's post above to the OP sums up anything that I could possibly say in a much more elegant and concise manner.


but you didn't expect to be attacked by kung fu guys. that was your mistake.

the reason we don't think the techniques would work? we tried them. against competent grapplers.

Permalost
5/19/2009 12:58am,
I have worked pressure point tactics against a grappler (blue belt BJJ + I think yellow or green belt judo), mostly in the form of pressuring the ribs or armpit with the knuckles or thumbs, grinding with the forearms or thumb knuckles under the ribcage or at the kidneys from a front bodylock, kicking the shins (I spar with shoes on) and hacking the heel into the outside of the lower thigh, throwing short uppercuts to the solar plexis or liver (sometimes if there's space and I feel stable I can sneak a snap kick off the front leg up there), and headbutting (if we're wearing headgear) . I don't consider this my anti-grapple though, since I'm only able to do this stuff because I have some understanding of clinch positioning and how to interfere with someone's attempt to take me down (I mostly try to keep distance between his hips and mine, because my strategy is to hit from the clinch, not take down unless I have a very safe option). I've noticed that these tactics work well on my training partner because he is very reactive to pressure points, while a lot of people are not (at least for me, causing a reactions is a lot more important than causing pain).

It is Fake
5/19/2009 1:16am,
Actually, Whacker is missing a very important point. That's why I said nitpicking.

Vital area striking works if you have grappling in your repertoire. Notice this?


while we do train in grappling and groundfighting it is not our strongest point, so take this as ye will.

Now hopefully this is legit grappling. I don't know so, I'm going to assume it is legit.

That is the flaw in your argument. You have grappled so, you are basing your point on that perception.

Most people, that use vital areas as a reason, have never done a lick of grappling in their life. They believe what they are told without, ever experiencing the actuality of grappling pressure. They tend to say things like this:


Here is an example of how kung fu can and will work against a grappler. From a standing position you get into it with a grappler. The grappler ties you up in a collar to elbow tie up like you see in wrestling. From this point you have one hand on or around the grapplers neck. It is very easy to strike the throat or eyes with an open hand strike using the finger tips or leopard paw to the throat from here because of how close the hand is already to the target..