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Yamabushi
5/17/2009 1:00pm,
Horizon a BBC science programme had an interesting show the other day on violence. It can be seen via the BBC's i-player (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00kk4bz/Horizon_How_Violent_Are_You/) but I'm not sure if it's available outside the UK.

It covered a fair bit of ground from how humans are hard wired to enjoy fighting, that we learn to control our violent urges from about the age of three and that people in authority can get most of us to do terrible things to other human beings just by telling us it needs to be done.

The last bit was interesting because it reminds me of the the way that some of the Bullshido Masters I've encountered in my time and come across on this forum behave.

(I did a search to see if this topic had been posted but nothing came up).

TheFasm4
5/17/2009 1:10pm,
Kinky, but the human body is designed to do 2 things.
The one is running: head, shoulders, feet, chest and the awesome sweat cooling system are made to withstand many kilometers of non-stop running (see the S.A.S.).
The other is, beating the living **** out of other humans:adrenaline on it's self is very addicting for us.You get my point, violence is mandatory and those who don't use any are usually those with depression.So, go get beat down and beat down other lads, it's good for you.:bully:

han090
5/17/2009 1:58pm,
reminds me of a psychological study where participants were led to believe they were giving a shock to a person answering questions, when they got the question wrong.

The shock would get increasingly bad as it went along. Till it got to one button, which was clearly labbeled not to be pressed as it was very dangerous. but some people pressed it anyway

They varied the test, and found that:
If another person had happily complied with the test before they had ran it, people were more compliant with doing it themselves. If another person refused and left, they were quicker to do the same.
People in positions of power overseeing the test (especially military people) made people more likely to go all the way to the highest button.
If the participant was told the other person had said bad things about them, they were more likely to do it.

I wish I could remember the name of the study though. Although, as i understand, it's a well known study (not quite pavlov's dog, but not too far from it).

Yamabushi
5/17/2009 2:13pm,
The Milgram experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment). It was the one that they used in the programme. Only 3 out of 12 refused to barbecue the test subject.

Flail_Crapple
5/17/2009 2:20pm,
reminds me of a psychological study where participants were led to believe they were giving a shock to a person answering questions, when they got the question wrong.

The shock would get increasingly bad as it went along. Till it got to one button, which was clearly labbeled not to be pressed as it was very dangerous. but some people pressed it anyway

They varied the test, and found that:
If another person had happily complied with the test before they had ran it, people were more compliant with doing it themselves. If another person refused and left, they were quicker to do the same.
People in positions of power overseeing the test (especially military people) made people more likely to go all the way to the highest button.
If the participant was told the other person had said bad things about them, they were more likely to do it.

I wish I could remember the name of the study though. Although, as i understand, it's a well known study (not quite pavlov's dog, but not too far from it).

You're thinking of the Milgram experiments http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
Depressingly enough, they have repeated his methodology at several points since then and produces similar results. If you feel like losing more faith in human nature, you can always check out the Zimbardo prison study as well http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

Enjoy.

Sley
5/17/2009 2:22pm,
Hey if I could get away catch free with tasering some one I didn't like I would.

Flail_Crapple
5/17/2009 2:25pm,
Hey if I could get away catch free with tasering some one I didn't like I would.

One of the disturbing things is that when you watch film of some of the original study, the shocker meets the supposed shockee face to face and they seem to get along well before the experiment starts.

Sley
5/17/2009 2:46pm,
One of the disturbing things is that when you watch film of some of the original study, the shocker meets the supposed shockee face to face and they seem to get along well before the experiment starts.

Humans like to play god.

IMightBeWrong
5/17/2009 4:34pm,
Hey if I could get away catch free with tasering some one I didn't like I would.

If I remember my psychology class lectures correctly, the person delivering the shock thought that the person getting shocked was the one being studied, but the one getting shocked was actually not getting shocked at all but acting to see whether or not the person delivering shock had the balls to keep shocking him at higher and potentially lethal levels. So it isn't a real shock thing, and nobody actually got hurt during the experiments.

What I thought the point of the experiment was, was to find out how much effect an authority figure had because there was a person telling "The Shocker" (I like Spider-Man references) what to do who was dressed more professionally. Turns out all you need is the right clothes to get what you want.

han090
5/17/2009 4:37pm,
One of the disturbing things is that when you watch film of some of the original study, the shocker meets the supposed shockee face to face and they seem to get along well before the experiment starts.I don't think this is especially disturbing to be honest.

I mean, I can't help but question the experiments environment. particularly with regard to applying it to nazi germany (as the study itself mentions).

As far as the shocker was aware, the shockee had the option to stop the test at any time. So, most ethical questions are severaly reduced by that fact.

Given that situation, it honestly seems mildly comparable to competing in a martial art. You're inflicting pain on someone else, knowing that they can stop at any time,and that they've signed up aware that they'll receive pain.

Furthermore, if each button just had a voltage label next to it, people may have no idea what the effect of each button was in real terms (aside from the fact that each one was incrimentally worse).

And i doubt anyone would really expect someone conducting an experiment would include options resulting in extreme, or lethal pain for one of those involved.

What I DO find disturbing though, is when people did the same experiment with REAL shocks, and a puppy. (though again, some of the same issues apply).

animlmthr
5/17/2009 4:39pm,
Kinky, but the human body is designed to do 2 things.
The one is running: head, shoulders, feet, chest and the awesome sweat cooling system are made to withstand many kilometers of non-stop running (see the S.A.S.).
The other is, beating the living **** out of other humans:adrenaline on it's self is very addicting for us.You get my point, violence is mandatory and those who don't use any are usually those with depression.So, go get beat down and beat down other lads, it's good for you.:bully:
FAIL!!

the human body is meant to do one thing and one thing only: reproduce.

Flail_Crapple
5/17/2009 4:46pm,
As far as the shocker was aware, the shockee had the option to stop the test at any time. So, most ethical questions are severaly reduced by that fact.

Given that situation, it honestly seems mildly comparable to competing in a martial art. You're inflicting pain on someone else, knowing that they can stop at any time,and that they've signed up aware that they'll receive pain.

Furthermore, if each button just had a voltage label next to it, people may have no idea what the effect of each button was in real terms (aside from the fact that each one was incrimentally worse).

And i doubt anyone would really expect someone conducting an experiment would include options resulting in extreme, or lethal pain for one of those involved.

What I DO find disturbing though, is when people did the same experiment with REAL shocks, and a puppy. (though again, some of the same issues apply).

It's been a little while, but IIRC the video had the shockee demanding "let me out of here" and the shocker being told to continue, as well as the shockee complaining of heart problems before going silent, after which some of the shockers still followed instructions to continue. Some asked the authority figure to please check on the other guy, but ended up continuing when told that the experiment had to continue unabated.

NJM
5/17/2009 4:56pm,
Kinky, but the human body is designed to do 2 things.
The one is running: head, shoulders, feet, chest and the awesome sweat cooling system are made to withstand many kilometers of non-stop running (see the S.A.S.).
The other is, beating the living **** out of other humans:adrenaline on it's self is very addicting for us.You get my point, violence is mandatory and those who don't use any are usually those with depression.So, go get beat down and beat down other lads, it's good for you.:bully:
Actually it's designed to do a lot more, and compared to other primates we're not as specialized for intraspecies violence.

NJM
5/17/2009 4:58pm,
What I thought the point of the experiment was, was to find out how much effect an authority figure had because there was a person telling "The Shocker" (I like Spider-Man references) what to do who was dressed more professionally. Turns out all you need is the right clothes to get what you want.
Which was the point of the experiment, not to see how inherently violent people were.

TheFasm4
5/17/2009 5:10pm,
FAIL!!

the human body is meant to do one thing and one thing only: reproduce.

Mate, don't be a dick. :http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2004-11/uou-hrm111204.php

TheFasm4
5/17/2009 5:12pm,
Actually it's designed to do a lot more, and compared to other primates we're not as specialized for intraspecies violence.

But of course, although, we are the only species that harm our own kin for pleasure.Isn't it great to be human?