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lklawson
3/12/2009 9:37pm,
I have republished Cosneck's "American Combat Judo." This is the 1944
(WWII) version, not the 1959 version which Paladin (an excellent company
whom wish much success) republished.

Many thanks to Ken Pfrenger for providing a copy of the '44 edition for me when the '44 edition which I bought turned out to be a '59 edition. :P

As usual, the download pdf is free.

http://www.lulu.com/content/paperback_book/american_combat_judo/6411686

Blurb:

As a student at the University of Illinois, "Barney" Cosneck won two
Big Ten wrestling championships. Later he served as Judo instructor in
the armed forces, where he co-authored "How to Fight Tough" with Jack
Dempsey. In "American Combat Judo" he has adapted the best of Japanese
ju jitsu, French foot fighting, Chinese boxing and American wrestling
to produce simple but effective techniques for defense and
counterattack.

Authored in 1944 and illustrated with 188 photo sequences, this book,
considered one of the cornerstones of American WWII era "Combatives" is
a unique window into self defense theory and the early evolution of
combined martial systems.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Permalost
3/12/2009 10:51pm,
Cool! I'm really happy about this. Thaks Kirk.

odysseus_dallas
3/13/2009 12:58am,
Good job, mate! Thanks for the upload. I'll definitely take a look.

But does this fall under the purview of WMA or not? It does have Western influences, obviously, but it's not wholly western...

Hesperus
3/13/2009 3:13pm,
...Odysseus, can you read?

It pretty clearly says American. Beyond that, it's a series of techniques compiled and, if formally taught at all, taught in America.

odysseus_dallas
3/13/2009 5:39pm,
...Odysseus, can you read?

Since I was 5.


It pretty clearly says American. Beyond that, it's a series of techniques compiled and, if formally taught at all, taught in America.

So what?

It's clearly influenced by Asian MA. I classify Western martial arts as those who are actually Western instead of just taught by Westerners.

Heck, we've gone through this with Sambo already... and that's HALF Western, not 1/4. (American Wrestling? Never heard of that. Do you mean Native American? Because there definitely isn't any kind of wrestling solely created by colonists in the New World- which colonists aren't American to begin with).

lklawson
3/13/2009 6:01pm,
But does this fall under the purview of WMA or not? It does have Western influences, obviously, but it's not wholly western...
WWII Combatives are generally considered WMA. They were developed by Westerners for specific use by Westerners. The fact that they draw upon certain other source arts (mostly if not exclusively Western) is why it's debated. It's also the reason that people debate whether or not Okinawan Karate is Okinawan or Chinese.

Since it draws on Boxing, Wrestling, and Savate as 3 of the 5 primary sources, I'd say that it's majority WMA sourced anyhow.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Permalost
3/13/2009 6:17pm,
Since I don't want to start a lame thread about something I'm uneducated about, this post got me wondering:

Heck, we've gone through this with Sambo already... and that's HALF Western, not 1/4. (American Wrestling? Never heard of that. Do you mean Native American? Because there definitely isn't any kind of wrestling solely created by colonists in the New World- which colonists aren't American to begin with).
I've read that there are/were Native American wrestling sports. Do they still exist, or is there historical evidence of them? I've read that the Native Americacan styles were basically made up for old pro wrestling shows to make some tan guy seem more fierce. More importantly, does a topic like this fit in a WMA forum?

lklawson
3/13/2009 6:59pm,
I've read that there are/were Native American wrestling sports. Do they still exist, or is there historical evidence of them? I've read that the Native Americacan styles were basically made up for old pro wrestling shows to make some tan guy seem more fierce. More importantly, does a topic like this fit in a WMA forum?
Yes, there is evidence of Native Indian wrestling and fighting styles. Whether or not there are any living lineages is greatly debated.

Personally, I'd opine that Native Indian arts aren't really Western though they could be rolled in.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

DdlR
3/13/2009 7:17pm,
IMO, the fact that "American Combat Judo" includes 1940s boxing, wrestling and savate certainly means that notice of Kirk's republication of the book is appropriate for this forum.

If there was to be discussion about the book/style, then (as with SAMBO, Bartitsu, etc.) discussion of the WMA aspects would also be suitable, with the necessary leeway. For example, if a particular technique was a hybrid of, say, Graeco-Roman wrestling and judo, then it would be foolish to "exclude" that technique from discussion.

By the same token, this wouldn't be the place to discuss the Asian MA content of Cosneck's system.

---------- Post added at 07:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:12 PM ----------


Since I don't want to start a lame thread about something I'm uneducated about, this post got me wondering:

I've read that there are/were Native American wrestling sports. Do they still exist, or is there historical evidence of them? I've read that the Native Americacan styles were basically made up for old pro wrestling shows to make some tan guy seem more fierce. More importantly, does a topic like this fit in a WMA forum?

Native American MA are a fascinating topic, but probably not suitable for this forum. Unfortunately, Bullshido still doesn't really have a forum for serious discussion of non-mainstream styles. This WMA forum is partly the result of my advocating for just such a forum, because so many previous threads on this sort of subject had ended up in YMAS by default.

If you do a forum search you'll find a few decent previous threads on Native American MA and combat sports. Unfortunately, it's one of those areas in which legit. info is really hard to come by.

odysseus_dallas
3/13/2009 8:16pm,
What you're saying does make sense, but that doesn't exclude the fact that it is indeed a hybrid and under discussion.

Hence the question mark in the first place.

DdlR
3/13/2009 8:48pm,
We addressed this sort of question in the first thread in this forum. I proposed then (as now) that discussions of hybrid European and Asian styles such as SAMBO and Bartitsu would be fine for the WMA forum as long as the discussion remained focused on the WMA aspects, allowing for whatever sensible digressions were necessary to maintain useful conversation/learning.

The "danger" is that, as has happened on many other WMA forums on other MA message boards over the past ten years or so, "Western" is assumed to mean "everything not from Asia" and the forum ends up becoming a kind of miscellaneous file.

Thus, this is not the place to discuss truly interesting topics such as Native American, African nor Middle Eastern MA, unless the topic also somehow revolves around WMA.

Permalost
3/13/2009 11:41pm,
I think an everywhere else forum could be pretty interesting. There's a lot of interesting martial traditions from neither Eastern or Western civilization. It would have to be mostly an academic one though, since I doubt we have many practitioners of these styles.

DdlR
3/14/2009 12:06am,
An "everywhere else" forum was actually the suggestion that (eventually) led to this forum. I agree that it would be very interesting. Technically, MABS is supposed to be the venue for serious historical discussion, and we have had a few good threads in there over the past couple of years, although they get interrupted by people confused by the fact that they're not Bullshido "investigations".

Go back far enough and we actually had a History forum, which IMO was one of the most interesting areas of this site.

willaume
3/14/2009 3:13pm,
Does it really mater?
How many threads do we have on great-Zimbabwian shield and spear or Abbasid wrestling?
If and when we can surely create a sub-forum?

phil

slower
3/30/2009 7:53pm,
Hi. Thanks for the book.

What is the difference between the 1944 version and the 1959 version?

DdlR
3/30/2009 7:59pm,
Does it really mater?
How many threads do we have on great-Zimbabwian shield and spear or Abbasid wrestling?
If and when we can surely create a sub-forum?

phil

The problem is the past was that threads on little-known styles ended up in the YMAS Forum by default, because it is the "general martial arts" forum. However, because it's also the "comedy forum", those threads tended to fall apart and we lost some opportunities to learn about some interesting lesser-known martial arts.