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ken20008
2/21/2009 2:01am,
hi ppl, i might want to start wc, but need advice.

i have heard its not practical, yet there are also a lot of pl who use it who say its practical.

does it really take a long time to become good at it?

is it really only good as a supplement to other MAs?

Kintanon
2/21/2009 2:07am,
You are so incredibly lucky that the rules of newbietown are protecting you from my verbal wrath.
Wing Chun is not practical. The stance is rediculous, then emphasis on the nonexistant "Trapping" range is a waste of time. It doesn't matter how long it takes for you to get good at Wing Chun it will never result in you getting good at Fighting. It is not good as a supplement to other MAs.

Wing Chuners do not train in an alive manner. They do not spar, they do not pressure test their techniques in any kind of semirealistic way. Rare and gifted individuals have made Wing Chun work to one degree or another in some places, but they are without exception spectacularly gifted athletes who would have been just as effective using Ballet in the ring.
So, instead of saying that you might want to start WC how about you tells us why you want to study a martial art and what schools are in your area. We will help you determine which school is the best fit for your needs. It almost certainly will not be Wing Chun unless you have some kind of fetish for walking around pigeon toed.

ken20008
2/21/2009 5:33am,
lucky indeed, but i was expecting more flaming. a noob on bullshido doesnt mean an internet noob.


I only wanted to know why you guys thought it was useless.

Ok, thanks, now i know its pure fucking ****, i shall train in something else. Muay Thai/BJJ combo maybe.

Diesel_tke
2/21/2009 9:52am,
Yeah, but you posted in noobietown. That protects you. Good instincts. So yeah, Wing Chun blows. Do a search on this site. You will find all kinds of anti Wing Chun info. But you will also find a cult following that are willing to dismiss facts and logic, to support their style.

So do you want to join a cult or learn to fight?

Victor Parlati
2/21/2009 10:35am,
Ken,

Here's a quote from a recent post I did on another thread:

"I believe that about 90% of the wing chun out there today is basically a second rate fighting art at best. Of the other 10%, about 5% of it is pretty good, and the remaining 5% is excellent.

I'm speaking as someone who's been in the wing chun world for almost 34 years now - so I've seen quite a lot."


***I HIGHLY recommend that you study "Traditional Wing Chun" (TWC), a system introduced by William Cheung. His claim is that he learned it privately from Yip Man during the years that he lived with him - while actively participating in Yip Man's school doing what was being taught publicly.

I've done both systems, under two men who studied directly with Yip Man; Moy Yat for 8 years, and for the last (going on) 26 years with William Cheung.

The principles, footwork, stances, kicking techniques, and general approach of TWC is different in some very significant ways than the other wing chun systems - and ADDS a great deal to the wing chun table.

All that said, I know for a fact that there are some excellent wing chun instructors out there not associated with William Cheung or TWC. The key is to find a school that ACTIVELY AND CONSISTENTLY teaches and encourages hard contact sparring...(and some crosstraining in other arts like grappling would be a plus also).

ken20008
2/21/2009 10:55am,
Yeah, but you posted in noobietown. That protects you. Good instincts. So yeah, Wing Chun blows. Do a search on this site. You will find all kinds of anti Wing Chun info. But you will also find a cult following that are willing to dismiss facts and logic, to support their style.

So do you want to join a cult or learn to fight?
decided to start Muay Thai+BJJ and maybe if i can afford, KAPAP. For those who dont know, KAPAP is the more brutal, better version of Krav.

The KAPA instrctor, whom i met through lessons in school (he gave lectures on psychology) has been a martial artist for 26 years, trained in WC before, as well as BJJ, Savate and TKD, told me this:

"I personally like Wing Chun as a realistic chinese martial arts system. The problem with Wing Chun is that it has not adapted over times well enough to other fighting styles, such as BJJ, MMA, boxing etc. As a system i think Wing Chun is great but it really needs to evolve. MMA is a modern fighting sports that combines ... Read morekicking, punching and grappling. As a person who started off as a stand up fighter, I appreciate grappling systems like BJJ. In fact, i am learning it from scratch and can only attests to its effectiveness on the ground. Most stand up fighters think they can prevent a takedown - they should try meeting BJJ guys on the mat and find how wrong they really are. I would encourage Wing Chun guys to learn grappling rather than another striking art like Muay Thai. In reality, we should always keep learning."


Ken,

Here's a quote from a recent post I did on another thread:

"I believe that about 90% of the wing chun out there today is basically a second rate fighting art at best. Of the other 10%, about 5% of it is pretty good, and the remaining 5% is excellent.

I'm speaking as someone who's been in the wing chun world for almost 34 years now - so I've seen quite a lot."


***I HIGHLY recommend that you study "Traditional Wing Chun" (TWC), a system introduced by William Cheung. His claim is that he learned it privately from Yip Man during the years that he lived with him - while actively participating in Yip Man's school doing what was being taught publicly.

I've done both systems, under two men who studied directly with Yip Man; Moy Yat for 8 years, and for the last (going on) 26 years with William Cheung.

The principles, footwork, stances, kicking techniques, and general approach of TWC is different in some very significant ways than the other wing chun systems - and ADDS a great deal to the wing chun table.

All that said, I know for a fact that there are some excellent wing chun instructors out there not associated with William Cheung or TWC. The key is to find a school that ACTIVELY AND CONSISTENTLY teaches and encourages hard contact sparring...(and some crosstraining in other arts like grappling would be a plus also).
yeah william's stuff is awesome. seen them before.

Victor Parlati
2/21/2009 11:00am,
"As a system i think Wing Chun is great but it really needs to evolve. MMA is a modern fighting sports that combines ... Read morekicking, punching and grappling."


***I'M on the same page as your old KAPA instructor, Ken. I've combined wing chun with some boxing and catch wrestling, as I believe that wing chun is basically little more than a very close quarter standup in-fight.

sasquatch989
2/21/2009 11:02am,
Ignore VP^^^^^^^^^

The first response posted summarized it nicely. The staples that get recommended around these parts are Boxing, Judo, Brazilian JJ, Sambo. Muay Thai, Kyukushin Karate, SanShou, Amateur Wrestling (Not WWE) and maybe Ke?po if you can find a school that lets you hit each other with enough force to get a concussion. I may be missing some from this list, and where you live also matters. I'm in India and they have a few good arts that are wrestling based, like kushti and Pehlwani. If you are in Turkey (and are gay) you can express your gayness and train hard with turkish oil wrestling.

What are you looking for? Where u at? What is your time and budget? Why are you looking at training in a martial art?
Answering these ?'s can help us help you

omoplatypus
2/21/2009 11:07am,
you don't sound like one of the many nut riding trolls that have come on in the past 6 weeks, and you are protected by the laws of newbietown, so here is my advice.

you have a better chance of finding the ark of the covenant than finding decent wing chun instruction. i have seen martial artists that have used elements of wing chun effectivly, but these elements could be learned in a few sparring sessions, rather than months and years of expensive training.

in point sparring, i have used some aspects of wing chun with outstanding success (once again, i learned these techniques in free sparring with a WC student, not in a class). but that success is overshadowed by the setting of the applicaion, point sparring.

post your city/state, and we'll help you find decent schools in your area of various styles. then you can milk the free lesson/week out of them and decide what's the best for you.

read a bit more on this site about the chun, and don't forget to tip your lovely bartenders and waitresses.

Oculus
2/21/2009 10:43pm,
Ken, just to give you an idea, I'm directing you to this thread on why Wing Chun is not a good idea (with videos!). Just in case, you know, you don't manage to find the video evidence through search.

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=80604&highlight=arts+competition

Edit: The vids are at the bottom of the page. Hope they give a bit of an idea, so just scroll if its too long

ken20008
2/22/2009 12:20am,
i live in singapore guys. so to all singaporean bullshido forumers....hi.

i wouldnt dare to put a post on wc in the other sections of this forums (i read up about wing chun and other arts before signing up), so i put it here for general noobness.

sanshou? good? theres a guy in the chinatown area of my country that offers free training sessions in the art.

plus a place called Fight G too, rather cheap, 12 training sessions per month in any of the arts offered is only 80 bucks SGD. Muay Thai plus BJJ on Mondays and MMA on thursdays, sounds good.

google "sanshou singapore" and "fight g singapore" for websites....lazy to put links.

and thanks everyone. i have decided not to use wing chun anymore. now....need advice on my current chosen arts....listed above.:sad:

Oculus
2/22/2009 2:26am,
You're in Singapore too? Awesome. Same here. Except I'm currently doing Muay Thai at Suphanhong gym in Golden Mile Complex.

12 Training sessions for $80 sounds like a good deal. If I wasn't stuck on Muay Thai I'd have done that.

Who and where can I get this free Sanshou training? Sanshou is pretty decent striking but like all things, the teachers are important. Oh check links right... gotcha.

What are you wanting in particular? Striking? Grappling? Mixed combination of both? But for $40 a year (so cheap...) I think there is no harm in dropping down and getting some instruction.

Fight G's website claims they can teach so many different arts. Makes me a bit curious as to how they're delivering that. Of course, for that price there really is no harm to once again, go down and see how they do things.

hitandrun
2/22/2009 4:52am,
I've trained in WC for over 2 years, so I will add a comment onto this from my own personal experiences.
The only thing that was an actual benefit to me was the daily conditioning of the forearms and shin bones, something I'd say was an added benefit while cross training in MT, but then we were banging shins in MT anyway. (This was during training under my 2nd Muay Thai instructor).
On practicality, it worked well when playing within the circle of kungfu patty cakes. In its own closet, the sparring of sticky hand applications seemed very effective and did wonders. In actual combat, none of it worked. Maybe if you 'refined' your "chain punches" into a more aggressive approach, using the hips & the waist, the boxer stance, etc etc (kind of like when Vitor Belfort punched Wanderlei Silva across the ufc floor), then yeah the strikes could be effective, but it wouldn't be WC anymore and you could easily achieve that somewhere else.
I have never seen "lap-sao" being effective in real combat, point being it doesn't work. Period. When the whole scientific display of bong-sao block into over hand backfist, to trapping, to "application this/application that" come face to face with real fighting, none of it works. They've all gone out the window when under pressure. You will see many WC bout turned to wild exchangings of messy chain punches as a result.
All scientific display of WC defense against take downs seemed great. All applied to "real take downs" have failed, being the simple fact that through your long journey of WC training, you've been designed to stay within the traditional rigid stance, with your back straighten, knees bent together, toes pointed in, and arms properly extended outward to follow the target like a radar. When the take down comes and you're grabbed, you can turn this/turn that or whatever, it won't matter much. You will lose posture and go down. Few can defend against take downs but its not from WC training.
Oh, and the whole tan-sao deal doesn't work. It will not save you from a hook nor an elbow, so don't fall for Yip Man's famous quote; "under the heaven, the tan-sao is invincible."
In any case, I hope you find what will benefits you most, be it active heavy sparring or competitions in the mma world. WC will not give you that, but I notice you already realized it.

ken20008
2/22/2009 7:02am,
You're in Singapore too? Awesome. Same here. Except I'm currently doing Muay Thai at Suphanhong gym in Golden Mile Complex.

12 Training sessions for $80 sounds like a good deal. If I wasn't stuck on Muay Thai I'd have done that.

Who and where can I get this free Sanshou training? Sanshou is pretty decent striking but like all things, the teachers are important. Oh check links right... gotcha.

What are you wanting in particular? Striking? Grappling? Mixed combination of both? But for $40 a year (so cheap...) I think there is no harm in dropping down and getting some instruction.

Fight G's website claims they can teach so many different arts. Makes me a bit curious as to how they're delivering that. Of course, for that price there really is no harm to once again, go down and see how they do things.

how about Evolve MMA? good?

Diesel_tke
2/22/2009 10:06am,
http://muaythai.sg/sanshou_school_chinatown

http://www.mma-academy.com/

I like the sanshou site. Looks pretty cool. Actually the fight G site was really good. They seem like they have everything there. Which makes me wonder a little bit about were these instructors came from. But if they are legit, they have everything.

Just depends on what you are looking for. If you want ground fighting you will want to go to Fight G. If you want stand up, sanshu is as good as anything.

JavaRonin
2/22/2009 12:39pm,
hi ppl, i might want to start wc, but need advice.
i have heard its not practical, yet there are also a lot of pl who use it who say its practical.

It's not practical. I did Chun for a few years and was fortunate to have dropped it. There were some good YouTube videos posted in the fora showing Chunists getting spectacularly knocked out in short order in MMA competitions, though I can't filter through the posts at the moment.



does it really take a long time to become good at it?

That's an interesting question. When I studied it in the late 80s/early 90s, Chun was advertised as being an almost plug and play fighting style without complex forms to master. There were six forms at the time and they were relatively short and not loaded with flowery crap, which was attractive at least to me. Up front, you were taught pretty much all of the complex 1-2-3 block/punch combos that were magically executed faster than the other guy could throw one punch in retaliation. Mastering the style in a couple of years wasn't out of the question. But after Chun began getting exposed against more effective martial arts -- boxing, MT, any kind of grappling -- we were told by the true believers:

1) "Takes many moons to master, Grasshopper."
2) "Uh... er... yeah, we've got grappling and all kinds anti-boxing techniques. We've always had them!"

We also saw a blossoming of supposedly underground, hitherto unknown Wing Chun styles that were the REAL thang and not like the other Chun stuff seen getting blown away by MMA.



is it really only good as a supplement to other MAs?

Only if you want to water down the other MAs. Unlike the experiences of others in the Chun, my earlier training had full-contact sparring. But what was interesting was the faster and harder the sparring, the less the Chun was used, if at all. Trying the complex *** sau trapping combos guaranteed eating hard crosses and/or being taken down. The sessions became essentially boxing affairs with a few kicks thrown in. If you see a Chunist being effective, you'll notice that the effective things he does in real sparring against a skilled, non-compliant opponent aren't Chun.

You can read all the fun and games in a recent thread where our friend Victor insists Chun works against boxing...
Wing Chun defends agains the hook (boxing not BJJ) - No BS Martial Arts (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=80857)