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Stew
2/12/2009 3:35pm,
While checking out the WMA links posted on the links thread I found this article on the Historical Pankration site. http://www.historical-pankration.com/article-1.html. Its an article discussing an attempted revival of pankration in Victorian England by combining Catch and Boxing. I found it interesting and thought I'd share.

Matt Phillips
2/12/2009 3:45pm,
"The solution has been to devise a novel form of glove, rather more open in the palm and with room for the fingers to grip securely, yet well-padded across the knuckles."

Interesting...

Stew
2/12/2009 4:30pm,
I thought that was interesting too. I need to do a little googling and see if I can find out more about this. Obviously it didn't catch on, but can you imagine how different things would be today if it had?

DdlR
2/12/2009 4:43pm,
I read that article years ago and have tried to research/substantiate it, but came up completely empty. I can only assume that "Neo-Pancratium" never really got beyond the experimental stage.

Stew
2/12/2009 4:48pm,
I think at least one of the guys involved in the historical pankration group is an ARMA member. I'll inquire over there if anybody has more info or access to the original article. I'd kinda like to see a scan of the original if possible.

DdlR
2/12/2009 5:03pm,
I think at least one of the guys involved in the historical pankration group is an ARMA member. I'll inquire over there if anybody has more info or access to the original article. I'd kinda like to see a scan of the original if possible.

Good luck, but I've seen the original article - unfortunately, it doesn't offer any more than what you see in this link.

templar9
2/18/2009 11:19am,
I think at least one of the guys involved in the historical pankration group is an ARMA member. I'll inquire over there if anybody has more info or access to the original article. I'd kinda like to see a scan of the original if possible.
I do not think that there is an ARMA member involved-since I am an ARMA member myself-in that..
I come from Greece and so does Pancration!
the whole thing with Pancration is very hazy here in Greece....I have visited some schools and what I saw was a mix of Karate and wrestling ...not what I was expecting to see...anyway...there is a very good book if you wanna read "Martial Arts of Ancient Greece" by Kostas Dervenis (check at Amazon).

theotherserge
2/18/2009 12:51pm,
Yep, much as I've ever discerned, any deeper information about it was lost in the Babbage machine it was stored in.

I do love the idea of it and it seems entirely plausible but there isn't anything to substiantiate beyond the link. At least until that punch card is found...

DdlR
2/18/2009 3:26pm,
I do not think that there is an ARMA member involved-since I am an ARMA member myself-in that..
I come from Greece and so does Pancration!
the whole thing with Pancration is very hazy here in Greece....I have visited some schools and what I saw was a mix of Karate and wrestling ...not what I was expecting to see...anyway...there is a very good book if you wanna read "Martial Arts of Ancient Greece" by Kostas Dervenis (check at Amazon).

I think Stew was right - one of the guys in the US doing pancration research is in ARMA (but obviously, the pancration research is his own project, not officially part of the ARMA curriculum).

rydam
3/01/2009 10:49pm,
I do not think that there is an ARMA member involved-since I am an ARMA member myself-in that..
I come from Greece and so does Pancration!
the whole thing with Pancration is very hazy here in Greece....I have visited some schools and what I saw was a mix of Karate and wrestling ...not what I was expecting to see...anyway...there is a very good book if you wanna read "Martial Arts of Ancient Greece" by Kostas Dervenis (check at Amazon).


I found the scholastic value of Kostas' book 'Martial Arts of Ancient Greece' to be a complete minimum, as he hardly references anything he states with regard to ancient literary sources. He is a Trad JJ BB and also does tai chi who has interpreted Pankration as if it were an eastern martial art. My lecturer (who is Greek too) read the bit in his book about how pankration was once called Pammachon because this was the name of the 'martial art version of pankration not the combat sport version' and laughed due to him making the assumption that a Theban version of Pankration in the 4th Century B.C mentioned in Dio Chrysostom 'Pammachon' could somehow become this mythical martial art before the existence of pankration.

Western MA's such as boxing, wrestling, pankration, are all highly practical MAs and are the result of a proccess of trial and error in fighting and sparring, what works is included, and what doesnt is omitted. Therefore any civilisation who has gone through the same proccess of trial and error with fighting and sparring to see what works will come up with the same (if not similar) conclusions. There are only so many ways the body moves and these were found out by many ancient warlike civilisations.

For example, the tombs of Beni Hasan in Egypt, dating to 2000 B.C shows people fighting from guard, half guard, doing kneebars, rear naked chokes, tomo nages, hip throws, single and double legs, triangle like strangulations, knee on belly etc.

http://ftp.informatik.rwth-aachen.de/olympics/images/prehistory/01.gif

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3173/3071414951_cc841498f0.jpg

Ill post again giving links when my postgrad study is done so everyone can have a read, but the victorian revival of pankration is interesting, it shows that the interest in NHB fighting has been an interest mankind has had for as long as fighting arts have been around.

265lbsfist
3/20/2009 8:33pm,
Fighting has always been a past-time of us humans so Victorian Englishmen's interest in reviving Pankration with their fascination for the Classics and with bareknuckle boxing complete with throws and CACC around is hardly a stretch of the imagination.

Nice Egyptian pics BTW.

bludhall
4/07/2009 12:11pm,
ok let me shed a little light on this issue for you guys

Firstly here is my website http://historical-pankration.com
It is the most complete list of Ancient Heavy Athletics sources on the Web.

MMA gloves were invented by the ancient Greeks and there are examples of them in sources.

Yes Kostas is the ARMA member in Greece working on a Pankratiomn interpretation, he is in my humble opinion the foremost authoirty on the subject. His book is excellent, if you find it short on sources you must be blind. i know Kosta myself as i was also an ARMA member for manyh years andi work on my own interpretation ( i have a few articles on my theories)

very ferw people are working on a historically accurate interpretation of Pankration out there, mostly thye just throw boxing and wrestling together and call it that. or they use MMA. All that ios fine byt historical arts were different, more brutal and without all the rules and safety equipment, and most importantly deeply connected to the pammachon or battlefield arts.

Oh Hi Stew :)

Mike Cartier
Meyer Frei Fechter
http://www.freifechter.com

Stew
4/07/2009 2:03pm,
Hey Mike, you're just the person I've been meaning to ask about this, but I've been slacking posting on any forum lately. My pesky job keeps getting in the way. Glad you chose to chime in.

rydam
4/07/2009 4:40pm,
ok let me shed a little light on this issue for you guys

Firstly here is my website http://historical-pankration.com
It is the most complete list of Ancient Heavy Athletics sources on the Web.

MMA gloves were invented by the ancient Greeks and there are examples of them in sources.

Yes Kostas is the ARMA member in Greece working on a Pankratiomn interpretation, he is in my humble opinion the foremost authoirty on the subject. His book is excellent, if you find it short on sources you must be blind. i know Kosta myself as i was also an ARMA member for manyh years andi work on my own interpretation ( i have a few articles on my theories)

very ferw people are working on a historically accurate interpretation of Pankration out there, mostly thye just throw boxing and wrestling together and call it that. or they use MMA. All that ios fine byt historical arts were different, more brutal and without all the rules and safety equipment, and most importantly deeply connected to the pammachon or battlefield arts.

Oh Hi Stew :)

Mike Cartier
Meyer Frei Fechter
http://www.freifechter.com

Just out of interest, what physical evidence (i.e written source evidence not etymological) has Kostas come across that proves the existence of Pammachon before Pankration? The only evidence I found in his book was the etymology of the word pammachon, which only gets mentioned once in greek and roman sources by Dio Chrysostom (a late Roman source) when he refers to a Theban type of pankration.

Kostas is doing a brilliant job with his physical interpretation of pankration, however I'd just like to see the actual written evidence he is basing this on.

bludhall
4/08/2009 11:19am,
well i cant remember exactly what he uses as his sources but i know i have seen the mention of the origins of Pankration and the heavy athletics in several sources. Its was a natural extention of the battlefield arts. In one of my articles i talk about the reasonings for the high cocked back hand so evident in pankration. one of the reasons i think is that it mimics the same athletics attributes in hoplite spear work and dagger play.

We know pammachon existed , its referenced in several sources not by name but as the unarmed art of the hoplite, which was necessarily much more brutal and battlefield ready than the later more sport oriented heavy athletics.

i think another telling sign of the the connection between battlefield art and sport is the choice of deities who graced the heavy athletics training facilities. Ares, hermes and herakles, theseus and athena.

i haven't seen anything put forth by anyone to say that battlefield arts did not influence and seed the later heavy athletics. i

rydam
4/08/2009 4:12pm,
well i cant remember exactly what he uses as his sources but i know i have seen the mention of the origins of Pankration and the heavy athletics in several sources. Its was a natural extention of the battlefield arts. In one of my articles i talk about the reasonings for the high cocked back hand so evident in pankration. one of the reasons i think is that it mimics the same athletics attributes in hoplite spear work and dagger play.

We know pammachon existed , its referenced in several sources not by name but as the unarmed art of the hoplite, which was necessarily much more brutal and battlefield ready than the later more sport oriented heavy athletics.

i think another telling sign of the the connection between battlefield art and sport is the choice of deities who graced the heavy athletics training facilities. Ares, hermes and herakles, theseus and athena.

i haven't seen anything put forth by anyone to say that battlefield arts did not influence and seed the later heavy athletics. i

But Greek hoplites (aside from Sparta in the 6th century) only became professional in the 4th century B.C , and the shift from battlefield fighting into heavy athletics would have had to happen before the insitutionalisation of the Games in early 8th century.

The 8th century leaves little written sources or iconographic evidence (unless stated by an later ancient historians) to suggest any kind of existence of pammachon ( i.e Tyrtaios, Homer etc). I do agree that pankration was the fighting style best suited for hoplites, however I just cant see the existence of a developed battlefield version in the early 8th century or even later.

Can you give me direct references to the sources you are using? Im just intrigued as I haven't come across them yet.

Thanks