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TheHungsta
1/03/2004 7:09pm,
Ok, throughout my martial arts training I've been exposed to like a billion standing joint locks. Every standing joint lock i have seen seems to be escapable by simply pulling your arm out, striking them while they are delivering the lock, or simply bending the locked joint in the opposite direction. With all these simple ways to escape standing joint locks, why do so many systems still teach them?

Strangler2
1/03/2004 7:11pm,
eagle claw baby.

ClintEQ
1/03/2004 7:14pm,
Some standing locks once in place are very hard to get out of if not impossible through most means.

tiltpoint
1/03/2004 7:26pm,
ive always wondered the same thing about striking. it seems no matter how good the strike is, if you just move out of the way, put a standing lock on them before they throw it or use some means to block it, it will never reach you. why bother?

Hedgehogey
1/03/2004 7:59pm,
You must have proper clinching skill and the ability to establish wrist control. The idea of catching punches is fucking stupid. Not only is it reflexively practically impossible (don't believe me? try it on a boxer sometime.), it's weak in that you're waiting for your opponent to attack.

Known workable joint locks from standing:
Kimura
Flying armbar
Kotagaeshi (after establishing 2 on 1 wrist control)
chicken wing
rear naked jaw lock
crucifix
one handed choke (not a finish itself generally, but an adjunct to sweeps. VERY EASY TO GET ARMBARRED)

known workable chokes from standing:
guillotine
RNC

Strangler: HEY WOW U R GOKU, WELL ALL ACCEPT YOU INTO THE CLUBHOUSE NOW
OH WOOPZ IS THAT MY EAGLE CLAW TEARING YOUR BLEEDING SHREDDED RECTUM

In other words, FUCKING STOP ALREADY or at least become intelligent or funny, you shithead otaku.

MiloNYC
1/03/2004 8:00pm,
They have no base to apply the submission against (i.e.. the floor) so are really useful only as a come-along or takedown. I found that grip strength can be the dominating factor in making them work.

Kempocos
1/03/2004 8:23pm,
If done correctly there is alot of pain which causes the person to rise on thier toes and the can be turn so a punch does not woork well. A base can be your body or other arm. I also think they work best after a strike or two. One of the problems is that people learn to try a wrist lock for a lapel grab works in the dojo , in real life they get punched. Grip strength is very helpful.

TheHungsta
1/03/2004 8:49pm,
ive always wondered the same thing about striking. it seems no matter how good the strike is, if you just move out of the way, put a standing lock on them before they throw it or use some means to block it, it will never reach you. why bother?

Cuz most ppl don't have the skill to dodge every strike coming their way, catch a fast punch and apply a lock, and unfailingly block flurries of strikes. But that's much easier than striking your opponent when they are applying the lock isn't it

tiltpoint
1/03/2004 8:51pm,
i dont feel standup locks are fight enders. but they are a way of gaining positional dominance over an opponent by not only positioning yourself, but him as well. how can that not be good?

in my opinion, they dont work as a standalone. there has to be some sort of setup, usually some defensive block/intercept. in conjunction with striking or a takedown, they are also very valuable.

a good lock is a gift the opponent kinda just gives to you. being able to recognize it is the key.

tiltpoint
1/03/2004 9:03pm,
see, double standard.... youre throwing flurries of punches while i only have my one lock i try.

i can understand your confusion about when to use them because most places ive seen dont use them effectively. the setup doesnt have to be perfect, you just need to know how to move from one lock to the next. comes with practice. just like punching.

if you cant use your locks effectively, ask yourself this question: how much time have i spent working locks compared to punches?

Choke
1/03/2004 9:16pm,
There is a time and a place for everything. You aren't going to try trapping a punch and applying a jointlock against a competant striker or against a flurry of punches.

katana
1/03/2004 11:02pm,
I think a lot of standing jointlocks are not very workable. They are too easy for the opponent to escape. Most joint locks require locking up the wrist, elbow, and shoulder. If anyone of those joints remain movable during the technique an escape is usually not far behind. Also many of the standing jointlocks outright fail against a much stronger and aggressive opponent. On the ground the game changes because you can use the surface you're on to prevent the joints from moving and allowing escape. For instance today I wrist locked a person who was on the ground. It was a cheesy move, but it worked only because I was on on the ground. Standing up they could have easily escaped. Many of the martial arts I've learned before used standing locks extensively, they may work occassionally and certainly look flashy and cool, but they are much too low percentage of a move to rely on for a fight. I prefer to take an aggressive person to the ground to finish the job. This has a much higher degree of success.

Jenfucius
1/03/2004 11:07pm,
it's good to facilitate a takedown into a favorable position for a choke or other more definitive ending, such as slapping on a pair of handcuffs.

Hedgehogey
1/04/2004 12:19am,
Did anyone read my posts? YOU CAN DO THEM FROM CLINCH. Especially if you have them backed against a wall/cage fence.

But without clinch skills and the ability to fight for wrist control, it's useless.

Matt Stone
1/04/2004 12:30am,
These kinds of techniques work just fine... However, a lot of people fail to realize that you don't remain standing when applying them.

If you aren't taking the person all the way to the ground to execute a pin or some kind of hold predicated on the standing lock, you are setting your opponent up for the opportunity to escape.

Take "outside wrist twist," the kotegaeshi mentioned earlier. Once the wrist is twisted, bringing the opponent up on his toes, he should be taken all the way back down to the ground where a modification to the lock can execute the pin, or other locks and pins may be applied (depending on how he falls).

That is one of the failings of some schools... The may train what we consider the entry, but they fail to follow through. The same can be said of their striking training - they block, they strike, but where is the lock or throw that inevitably and logically should follow? Nowhere to be seen...

Greese
1/04/2004 12:42am,
The can be like throws or strikes...as an individual, one shot thing, they are easy to avoid. The trick is being able to take thier resistance into another lock.
Example- You grab my shoulder, I trap the arm, pivot step through and press on/above your elbow with my other forearm. From there if you don't react I will force you down with that. If you try and roll with it, I switch to a wristlock that gets the benefit of my strength and hip twist and your roll equals broken wrist.
It is all in the combos.