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Victor Parlati
2/09/2009 9:04am,
Thought you guys might want to take a look at this.....

YouTube - Wing Chun vs Hooks (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1d1OyedoDE)

Kintanon
2/09/2009 9:49am,
You don't seriously believe that works do you?

JingMerchant!
2/09/2009 9:59am,
Vic, interesting demo video you posted up there.

However, you do know how everyone here is going to react don't you? Kintanon cut straight to the heart of the matter, but I'll be glad to elaborate...

Now that you've DEMONSTRATED this idea, you really have to PROVE it. You can do that by taking your Video camera down to the nearest boxing gym, get a willing volunteer who can box, come to some arrangement about gloves/rules and then have at it on front of the camera.

If your hook defence theory works out, well, it'll be a giant step forward in Wing Chun relations on this site.

Victor Parlati
2/09/2009 10:17am,
Yes, I’m well aware of what motivates people like Kintanon and a whole bunch of other people around here – and I really don’t give a ****, to be quite honest. And yes, I DO INTEND to make some more vids in the coming weeks that will include competitive full contact sparring (and grappling) against people who know what they’re doing.

In the meantime, here’s something I wrote recently on a different forum about the material shown in this first vid:


Intend to put up at least one new vid in the coming weeks, but in the meantime I feel compelled to say a few things again about the bil sao/lop sao method of stopping hooks - and of the importance of watching the opponent's elbows.

In wing chun arm positioning, with the elbows held close to the sides of the body and the hands and arms also in - so that the centerline/central lines are protected...the guy throwing the hook (no matter how tight) will have to go around your arms...thereby giving you a slight advantage in terms of speed and control...

because you have the inside position.A similar concept in wrestling/grappling to having inside control with bicep ties, underhooks, collar ties, etc. The man with the inside position has a slight built-in advantage just by virtue of his positioning.

So there is a built-in slight advantage to the wing chun basic hand positioning against round/hook punches...WHEN IN CLOSE TO THE OPPONENT.

As I've said a thousand times by now, from a distance this can actually become a disadvantage if his arms are longer and you're not watching alertly, if your body positioning and footwork is lacking, if you don't understand (or are slow) in doi ying (facing), etc. etc.

He can hook around your arms and hit you in the side of the face or head, the body, etc.And being vulnerable to the hook off the jab is a very big example of how this can work against you from a longer distance.

So you HAVE TO BE watching his lead elbow directly (and the rest of his points indirectly with peripheral vision, ie.- his other elbow and his knees)...if you want to use wing chun methods to counter the jab, the hook off the jab, uppercuts, the rear cross, etc.

(And watching the knees is how you effectively counter his kicks).

Because elbows move slower than fists and knees move slower than feet when strikes/kicks are being thrown at you - since they travel to a shorter distance in the same amount of time as the hand or foot does - so they have to be moving slower...and therefore...easier to see...therefore providing you TIME to deal with what's coming

.............................................

NOW, as to REAL TIME fighting/sparring...as I said earlier, it will rarely come out exactly as you saw it on the vid, ie.- he will set it up differently, you both will be moving - thereby changing the timing and distance dynamics, (ie.- you may decide to come in and hit first)...

you may have to block and hit back with an elbow or a forearm or a palm strike instead of a punch, you may have to interrupt your first move (and not actually complete your punch into his shoulder or face - or perhaps not even complete the bil/lop sao)...

and immediately turn to face and counter the punch coming from his left hand...because immediately upon contact (or even before contact) while blocking or preparing to block his first punch at his leading elbow with bil/lop...

you start looking directly at his other elbow since you now see the other hand starting to come - so you interrupt your first move in time to deal with it, etc.

SO MY FIRST VID WAS JUST A MODEL TO WORK WITH.In other words, inside positioning is very conducive to the bil/lop and hit with the other arm wing chun response to the hook or round punches.

JingMerchant!
2/09/2009 10:27am,
Yes, Iím well aware of what motivates people like Kintanon and a whole bunch of other people around here Ė and I really donít give a ****, to be quite honest. And yes, I DO INTEND to make some more vids in the coming weeks that will include competitive full contact sparring (and grappling) against people who know what theyíre doing.Cool! Looking forward to that!!

M1K3
2/09/2009 10:30am,
Victor, why don't you create another thread to discuss this? This is newbietown and you are derailing his thread. Good manners and stuff, ya see?

Victor Parlati
2/09/2009 10:35am,
Okay…..

Kintanon
2/09/2009 10:36am,
Ok, so yes, you really do think it will work.
Assuming your opponent stands rooted like his feet are nailed to the floor and whips arm punches at you like a damn noob I guess it might work for a while.
But until you show some kind of evidence that it works against an actual active opponent then it's just so much masturbatory chunning (much like those mystic catch wrestling pressure points to open the guard...).

It is Fake
2/09/2009 10:54am,
Removed from a newbietown Wing Chun thread.
I love wing chun - No BS Martial Arts (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=80830)

If you want to discuss points that is fine trolling in noob town is a bannable offense.

Here is your guys own thread to argue and troll each other.

ignatzami
2/09/2009 11:13am,
Thanks IIF,

Vic,

My Wing Chun Sifu showed a very similar drill. It works, to a point.

If the attacker is stronger, or the defender has a weak Biu Ji then the technique fails. This is further aggravated by the fact that the technique is reliant on the hook being a wider looping hook. If the attacker throws a tight inward hook the there is not enough space for the defense to be applied.

Also, you have to look at the possibility of an alternating attack. Say a high right hook, a left cross to a right uppercut. The high hook could be blocked in this fashion but as the attacker transitions to the cross he's attacking at an angle that is bad for the defender. Now, assuming the defender is quick enough, or the attacker slow enough for the defender to use this technique again against the cross, or bong-lap sau the cross you still have the issue of the uppercut.

What I'm trying to say here is the technique will work, but only in a very limited situation.

Also, coming from my Judo experience Biu Ji or Bill Ji leaves the arm exposed for a variety of throws, as well as leaving the forward leg exposed for sweeps.

I hope you post some videos, I hope your able to show this working against a trained opponent. I just don't think it will work outside of a very slim facet of combat.

Goju - Joe
2/09/2009 11:19am,
Vic

Most boxers don't lead with a hook, usually jab, cross, hook with the hook going to the body

Goju - Joe
2/09/2009 11:20am,
Also did you say foo foo foom in your vid?

M1K3
2/09/2009 11:22am,
Vic

Most boxers don't lead with a hook, usually jab, cross, hook with the hook going to the body

Yep, usually by the time a boxer throws a hook he is close enough to give you a kiss or in Tyson's case, nibble on your ear.

ignatzami
2/09/2009 11:23am,
Yep, usually by the time a boxer throws a hook he is close enough to give you a kiss or in Tyson's case, nibble on your ear.

NOM NOM NOM *SMACK*

Victor Parlati
2/09/2009 11:35am,
Thanks IIF,

Vic,

My Wing Chun Sifu showed a very similar drill. It works, to a point.

If the attacker is stronger, or the defender has a weak Biu Ji then the technique fails. This is further aggravated by the fact that the technique is reliant on the hook being a wider looping hook. If the attacker throws a tight inward hook the there is not enough space for the defense to be applied.

Also, you have to look at the possibility of an alternating attack. Say a high right hook, a left cross to a right uppercut. The high hook could be blocked in this fashion but as the attacker transitions to the cross he's attacking at an angle that is bad for the defender. Now, assuming the defender is quick enough, or the attacker slow enough for the defender to use this technique again against the cross, or bong-lap sau the cross you still have the issue of the uppercut.

What I'm trying to say here is the technique will work, but only in a very limited situation.

Also, coming from my Judo experience Biu Ji or Bill Ji leaves the arm exposed for a variety of throws, as well as leaving the forward leg exposed for sweeps.

I hope you post some videos, I hope your able to show this working against a trained opponent. I just don't think it will work outside of a very slim facet of combat.


***THANKS for the response. I address some of what you're saying in the long post I made earlier on this thread, so please read that if you haven't already done so. (Post# 4 on page 1).

But in addition, against a tight hook I WOULD HAVE ALREADY been hitting this guy (before he gets any closer to me than the guys you saw in the vid)...or...if he is VERY CLOSE...I might elbow strike him instead of punching him...or perhaps a forearm strike or a palm strike (because of the shorter distance). As to his cross, please go back and watch the vid and notice exactly WHERE I've positioned myself on his first move (to the outside of his lead leg)...

which means that his own lead leg is now actually in the way of his cross being thrown effectively, ie.- he now has to momentarily adjust his whole body angle in order to hit me with the cross...

giving me TIME to deal with it or hit him first....and the same with any other punch he may try to throw with that hand.

Also note what I said about watching elbows and knees in my earlier post - and how that might affect all of my responses, including interrupting my blocks/strikes before I even complete them...

in order to deal with his next move(s).

Furthermore, I am a mixed martial artist at this point, which means (which you'll see on future vids) that I also throw boxing punches at longer ranges (but all married to Traditional Wing Chun CENTRAL LINE principles)...

as a means of bridging to the wing chun preferred close quarter range (and this also includes some longer range kicking)...

and I do catch wrestling...which means that I might even decide to clinch this guy at any moment.

I'm not joined at the hip with just wing chun - as I believe that it's basically a very close quarter strking art - and that is all.

At other ranges other things have to be done, imo.

CoffeeFan
2/09/2009 11:51am,
I look forward to seeing more videos against resisting opponents