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Goju - Joe
1/08/2009 9:48am,
I know we have discussed this before but now we have Mr Tripp here I thought it would be worth revisiting

Mr Tripp said


All the time I get asked about Judo throws in MMA. Yes, I know Karo pulls them off. However, generally speaking, I do not understand why people want to learn Sambo or Judo throws for mma. The throws in both of those arts are best used with grips on clothing. AT BEST using them without those grips will be less effective than with them. Why would you want to learn a less than perfect Judo throw when there are moves that were created to be used without clothing?

When I went to my Karo seminar he explained how he uses his judo in MMA mostly as a counter to wrestlers who aggressively move forward especially for body and lower body shoots.

That rather than sprawling he turns into them and uses their momentum for a throw.

The issue is that it takes time and 1000's of hours of practice to do this.

The reward though is a good throw that ends up with you on top.


So there is definitely a risk reward but I (in my vast inexperience) would think its worth developing.


http://img26.picoodle.com/img/img26/4/6/20/f_11j2cr5m_33181ca.gif

http://img32.picoodle.com/img/img32/4/6/20/f_diegosanchem_aa10f09.gif

http://img32.picoodle.com/img/img32/4/6/20/f_14wcvlm_e25e63d.gif

http://img32.picoodle.com/img/img32/4/6/20/f_thparisyansm_b1a4d18.gif

http://img32.picoodle.com/img/img32/4/6/20/f_haraim_6ac621b.gif

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u13/punchdrunk411/gsp_toss.gif


http://i38.tinypic.com/23mmtf5.jpg

I would like to hear Mr Tripps and Coach Josh's thoughts on this.

Mtripp
1/08/2009 10:03am,
If you are a national or world level Judoka, then you should learn to adapt your technique to the MMA (As Karo did).

If you are just getting started, and only want to do MMA, not so much.

Goju - Joe
1/08/2009 10:47am,
But do you feel at any time they're worth learning?

In the hierarchy of the MMA learning curve I don't think anyone will disagree that sprawl, double leg, single leg and pummeling in for a body lock should be the basics of offensive stand up grappling.

But don't you think tai Otoshi, Hari O goshi, and O soto should also be taught from in the clinch?

They're not the hardest throws in the world to learn (master yes, learn the basic mechanics no)

I see guys get body locked and as they try and sprawl and pummel in they get taken down.

yes they shouldn't let themselves be body locked but wouldn't turning into it and grabbing a whizer grip for a Hari as a defensive alternative?

Coach Josh
1/08/2009 10:56am,
The art of the take down is without a doubt the most difficult and under utilized aspects of martial arts in MMA. People are either not interested in learning it or have had little success using it (due to lack of practicing) that they disregard it.

One thing that irks me is hearing "Judo throw" but I like hearing the word Judo in reference to MMA so its tolerated. There is a multitude of applicable throws from Judo. Many of them have been used or they are very similar to wrestling take downs. There is a subtle difference between them. The way a wrestler uses a technique and a Judoka uses the same technique can be seen by the trained eye.

Utilization of a good technique is seen not just by high level Judoka. GSP, Hazelet and Nate Diaz have all pulled of spectacular haraigoshis to setup wins for matches. I wouldn't call any of them high level Judo players. They see that a technique is high percentage and add it to their arsenal.

Haraigoshi seems to be the technique of choice right now and for good reason. It is an outside sweep technique that allows you to land in side control bypassing the guard. It can be used with an under hook, whizzer or head control. It can be executed if the motion is forward or sideways. It doesn't require you to change levels and for the most part is fairly safe.

I hate to disagree with Tripp but beginners in MMA would benefit from learning good Judo based take downs not Ippon Judo.

I attended a seminar with Dan Henderson in TX once. I went thinking I am going to learn wrestling from one of the masters of the sport. I was astonished at the techniques that he was showing and how closely they resembled Judo. The only difference was the grips due to it being no gi. He worked off a collar tie and under hook which is deadly. He talked about timing, foot placement, hip placement, good posture, off balancing and controlling the guy to the ground. One of my brown belts was with me and was the demonstration body for Dan. He came over and said "Does it feel like we are at a Judo seminar?". We both laughed. The take downs were hip toss (ogoshi), foot trip (sasae), ankle stab (kosoto) and a foot pick(kuchikitaioshi).

This lead me to believe that good technique is appreciated by all styles. If a technique is good regardless of its origins it will be seen in MMA. While I believe that Judo holds a special place in my heart it is not the end all and be all of martial arts. But the philosophy and principles of good Judo are prevalent in all forms of combat sports.

My philosphy now is to teach good take down technique to the MMA fighters that allows them to get to a great postion in a match. We scheme and work till we find the best technique for the fighter.

Mtripp
1/08/2009 10:58am,
Actually, I think the foot sweeps are a better bet from the clinch.

Bob Knoll has a tremendous DVD on this. He took the Judo foot sweeps and applied them to wrestling.

The throws you speak of are very good, and likely applied to a solid mma fighter's game. I just think the learning curve (the time taken) would be better spent elsewhere.

Goju - Joe
1/08/2009 11:02am,
The art of the take down is without a doubt the most difficult and under utilized aspects of martial arts in MMA. People are either not interested in learning it or have had little success using it (due to lack of practicing) that they disregard it.

One thing that irks me is hearing "Judo throw" but I like hearing the word Judo in reference to MMA so its tolerated. There is a multitude of applicable throws from Judo. Many of them have been used or they are very similar to wrestling take downs. There is a subtle difference between them. The way a wrestler uses a technique and a Judoka uses the same technique can be seen by the trained eye.

Utilization of a good technique is seen not just by high level Judoka. GSP, Hazelet and Nate Diaz have all pulled of spectacular haraigoshis to setup wins for matches. I wouldn't call any of them high level Judo players. They see that a technique is high percentage and add it to their arsenal.

Haraigoshi seems to be the technique of choice right now and for good reason. It is an outside sweep technique that allows you to land in side control bypassing the guard. It can be used with an under hook, whizzer or head control. It can be executed if the motion is forward or sideways. It doesn't require you to change levels and for the most part is fairly safe.

I hate to disagree with Tripp but beginners in MMA would benefit from learning good Judo based take downs not Ippon Judo.

I attended a seminar with Dan Henderson in TX once. I went thinking I am going to learn wrestling from one of the masters of the sport. I was astonished at the techniques that he was showing and how closely they resembled Judo. The only difference was the grips due to it being no gi. He worked off a collar tie and under hook which is deadly. He talked about timing, foot placement, hip placement, good posture, off balancing and controlling the guy to the ground. One of my brown belts was with me and was the demonstration body for Dan. He came over and said "Does it feel like we are at a Judo seminar?". We both laughed. The take downs were hip toss (ogoshi), foot trip (sasae), ankle stab (kosoto) and a foot pick(kuchikitaioshi).

This lead me to believe that good technique is appreciated by all styles. If a technique is good regardless of its origins it will be seen in MMA. While I believe that Judo holds a special place in my heart it is not the end all and be all of martial arts. But the philosophy and principles of good Judo are prevalent in all forms of combat sports.

My philosphy now is to teach good take down technique to the MMA fighters that allows them to get to a great postion in a match. We scheme and work till we find the best technique for the fighter.

What do you think about the philiosophy of turning into a shot rather than sprawl.

Risk reward.

Reward is you get a throw and end up in the dominant position

Risk, you flub it and might end up with your back taken

Mtripp
1/08/2009 11:04am,
The most important thing to keep in mind, is the difference between

Possible, Probable, and Likely

The majority of time should be spent with Likely

Coach Josh
1/08/2009 12:50pm,
Taiotoshi not so much. Osoto is a rarity due to most of the time people are moving forward which is haraigoshi is seen more.

Foot sweeps without a doubt are were its at.

Sasae - Love it when Fedor uses it
Kouchi - great when the other guys back is on the cage
Ouchi-make sure you have a good guard pass.
Okuriashi - would make a high light reel out of any one
Deashi-which I would love to see and haven't yet.
Tsurikomiashiharai - another one I would like to see pulled off correctly. I am currently working on it for no gi.

On turning instead of sprawling hmmmmmm. I would say no at first. It would depend on how low the guy is shooting. IF he is real low then a sprawl is better. If he is high and you have a control ie. whizzer then I would say go for it.

theotherserge
1/08/2009 12:53pm,
its taken me about 10 years to get a good Tai-Otoshi&Uchimata (Peredina&Podxvat) combination. I love jacket throws, always have. If I thoght I was going into MMA 10 years ago, I would've passed on the time its taken to get these throws down.

When I can get to it, I'll rip some vid of Kurinnoy doing no-gi variants he used for International Rules Sumo. Very cool stuff indeed.

Coach Josh
1/08/2009 1:14pm,
LOL look at the Serra gif and Manny throws up an Ippon.

Dam I forgot he threw Diaz on his face.

HappyOldGuy
1/08/2009 1:15pm,
It's interesting. The attitude at our gym seems to be that unless you already have a wrestling background or natural aptitude, it's more important to focus on pummeling and the (judo/greco) clinch throws rather than focusing on the shot. Our coaches seem to feel like developing an effective shot is harder than learning to counter it.

IR but an elderly newbie personally. I do love the no gi judo classes though.

FictionPimp
1/08/2009 1:49pm,
It seemed like the no-gi grips for harai and tai otoshi just came naturally to me when I started grappling no-gi. The posture is a little different and the grip fighting a little more in close, but it works great for me. I tend to only do a couple combo's no gi. Deashi Harai to Harai Goshi, kouchi gari to Harai goshi (or something close to it), and harai goshi to what I guess could be called osoto makikomi.

I've also gotten better with my tai otoshi with an overhook and wrist control, and with a headlock/elbow control. A lower percentage, but effective 'asshole' move I like is a osoto gari, only using my arm or hand against the ridge of the jaw to break the balance (not a strike, but a hard push). However, most guys posture in no-gi is not setup for that to work.

I know no-gi grappling is not mma, but a lot of the same premises apply. I really want to do more mma sparing to start working out combo's that use more strikes to initiate the clinch and the kuzushi of the throw.

Goju - Joe
1/08/2009 2:12pm,
For me the PSort jiu Jitsu I do uses mostly striking and judo throws (cause we wear the gi)

Things like O Soto are set up with a strike.

I.e. A front kick to the midsection.

Accept your aiming to the right of the body and the leg plants it'self for the O Soto while distracting them with the kick

This has been efective for me but I don't do MMA so who knows.

Also the Valley drop with a forward jab jab jab movement from a left side fighting stance closing the gap when the right leg swings behind them and I drop level and reach around their waste while coming in.

These points might illustarte the effectiveness of striking for setting up the throws,

which is something that doesn't get focused on in Judo a lot.

But please read my preface - this is from my sport jiu jitsu experience I don't do MMA

Mtripp
1/08/2009 3:03pm,
The problem in the transition from no gi grappling/judo to mma, is the right or left hook.

Judobum
1/08/2009 6:45pm,
I think that the big issue with using judo throws in MMA is the risk of getting your back taken. Harai works well because in a no-gi version you're generally not completely turning your back to your opponent. O-gpshi, ippon seoi or other hip throws you would leave your back vulnerable if your opponent countered or avoided the throw.

The learning curve is huge for getting these throws down to a point where you could apply them while someone's trying to punch you in the face. There's also not a wealth of no-gi judoka out there to teach them either. I think you'll gradually see more of them in MMA but taught more specifically for MMA/no-gi gripping. Harai is already out there so it'll just be a matter of time before other effective throws appear.

Doubles and singles are much less risky since you're still facing your opponent if they fail. Plus there's more guys with wrestling backgrounds in MMA at this point so it's easier to focus on them.

junkielectric
1/08/2009 7:34pm,
I feel kind of out of my league in this discussion, but one thing that I've noticed recently while watching mma is just how often guys labeled as good wrestlers in mma while get tied up in a stagnant clinch. So many fights are stalling when they both tie up in mirrored over/unders, with both guys too tired to separate and strike, and both guys defending too well for the other to drop and go for the legs. However, the entire time they leave themselves open for harai, uchi mata, and a bunch of other throws.

Its extremely frustrating watching a fight stagnate when they have options open to them like that, and I feel that a fighter who does know at least how to do harai from that position would have a distinct advantage (as obviously shown by the fighters who do know that and similar throws).