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Martial Mack
12/18/2008 1:57am,
SEALs shoot people. Anyone who thinks their h2h training is at MMA level is sniffing varnish. They are fit, and mentally strong, but they train with people like Paul Vunak.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7fCLrNJDF0

It's funny you mention Vunak, because he's a JKD guy, but Saunders is also a JKD guy.

I also don't know if the SEALs still use Vunak's materials; Vunak trained them in the early-90s. But if they do, then it's really just a case of a more talented JKD guy kneeing the **** out of another JKD guy...

Matsufubu
12/18/2008 3:52am,
This shitstorm isn't nearly big enough. I know, let's debate 'street vs sport'. Oh man, if only eye gouges and groin strikes were allowed in the UFC, MMA fighters would get owned. That's how fighters won the early (no rules) UFCs, no?

I heard a SEAL took out 30 guys when riding through the park on his bike.

Matt Phillips
12/18/2008 10:08am,
It's funny you mention Vunak, because he's a JKD guy, but Saunders is also a JKD guy
Sorry, its been a while... can you remind me what we're talking about here? Which two JKD guys?

Dagon Akujin
12/18/2008 10:20am,
This shitstorm isn't nearly big enough. I know, let's debate 'street vs sport'. Oh man, if only eye gouges and groin strikes were allowed in the UFC, MMA fighters would get owned. That's how fighters won the early (no rules) UFCs, no?

I heard a SEAL took out 30 guys when riding through the park on his bike.
Wait a god damn second! If groins and eye gouges were allowed in the UFC, wouldn't all MMA fighters probably be really ridiculously good at them? Better at doing them than just about anybody else?

Oh ****.





Our only hope would be that they are all already blind/sterilized.

MrBadGuy
12/18/2008 10:46am,
DUDES I SAW ONE GUY TAKE LIKE 60 PUNCHES TO THE PENIS TIP IN ONE OF THE EARLY UFC'S AND HE KEPT FIGHTING!

Matt Phillips
12/18/2008 11:07am,
For the record, groin shots were allowed in the bad ol' days.
0:35
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sw0ilpj9ZEE

Sun Wukong
12/18/2008 11:36am,
yeah, that makes my balls hurt. does that happen to anyone else? Sympathy testical pain?

Martial Mack
12/18/2008 1:12pm,
Sorry, its been a while... can you remind me what we're talking about here? Which two JKD guys?

Well, you had implied in an earlier post that Wolff lost to Saunders because the SEALs trained with a guy like Vunak. But Vunak is a JKD guy, and Saunders lists his fighting style as JKD as well. My point is that, if the SEALs are still utilizing Vunak's techniques that he taught them in the early-90s, they have a JKD base in their H2H. So if that's the case, then Wolff and Saunders both have a JKD background, but Saunders is clearly a better fighter with more of a grasp of MMA cagefighting. He's adapted his JDK for MMA bouts, though I will say that Wolff didn't seem to have a grasp on much of anything!

Matt Phillips
12/18/2008 3:18pm,
Well, you had implied in an earlier post that Wolff lost to Saunders because the SEALs trained with a guy like Vunak. But Vunak is a JKD guy, and Saunders lists his fighting style as JKD as well. My point is that, if the SEALs are still utilizing Vunak's techniques that he taught them in the early-90s, they have a JKD base in their H2H. So if that's the case, then Wolff and Saunders both have a JKD background, but Saunders is clearly a better fighter with more of a grasp of MMA cagefighting. He's adapted his JDK for MMA bouts, though I will say that Wolff didn't seem to have a grasp on much of anything!

Do you think MMA is making JKD obsolete? If you look at (say) Innosanto JKD, with its heavy focus on MT and Shootfighting, and open mindedness towards boxing and BJJ, you'd think JKD and MMA would be a natural fit. Except for one thing: no trapping in MMA. MMA exonerates almost all of modern JKD except the heavy emphasis on trapping range. Is it "trapping vanity" that keeps JKD in its own world?

6 Foot Feather
12/18/2008 8:14pm,
Do you think MMA is making JKD obsolete? If you look at (say) Innosanto JKD, with its heavy focus on MT and Shootfighting, and open mindedness towards boxing and BJJ, you'd think JKD and MMA would be a natural fit. Except for one thing: no trapping in MMA. MMA exonerates almost all of modern JKD except the heavy emphasis on trapping range. Is it "trapping vanity" that keeps JKD in its own world?

Hey, it's still me, but I changed my member name from Martial Mack to to this--6 Foot Feather (makes sense if you see me!).

Anyway, I think that JKD and MMA can definitely be a natural fit, and I think that many JKDers are moving in that direction. Dana White recognized Bruce Lee as the "father" of MMA, because, as many in the JKD "concepts" camp seem to feel (including Inosanto), Bruce was moving in the direction of modern MMA. That Joe Lewis article was terrific and very revealing, because Bruce seemed to be moving in the direction of Muay Thai and kickboxing, phasing out more and more of his Wing Chun--especially trapping. Many Jun Fan JKDers (I won't name names, but they know who they are) want to hold on to everything Bruce taught in terms of techniques, not seeming to want to expand upon it despite the fact that Bruce was ever-evolving and never static in his evolution to find the most effective and practical ways of fighting. Personally, I'm completely certain that Bruce would've embraced BJJ as well and probably would've even added some useful concepts of his own to it...

All that said, I still think that JKD has a different implication than MMA--i.e. JKD is geared toward street defense and MMA is sport. I think what many JKDers need to start doing however is seeing what MMA can do for them in terms of providing more effective "delivery systems" for the "dirty" techniques that JKD favors for street defense...

Einstein McFly
12/18/2008 10:24pm,
dude, chill! the arguement before was that a person who trains in mma could always kill a seal. who would win in a fight to death overall. iam not saying a seal would always win. but when your trained to kill with a gun, knife, and especially your hands; you have an advantage to survive. its a hard subject to really argue on. my finall anwser is its an even match. your right on the fact that an mma trained person goes at it all day, conditioning, weightlifting, and running. but seals and marines are considered in the matter, raised as solders, matured as spartans. overall a seal has to run across a beach cove, undetected with about 140 pounds of explosive **** and guns tied to their back. when they are stabbed from behind they have to manage to fight back with a knife wound in there back. they're good all around thats why their seals. they're used to killing more than forrest griffin, or wanderlei siva could ever be. now i'am sure there's mma fighters that can kill
seals faster than people can blink. but just becase you train in mma doesnt give you all the skill to kill a seal. most seals become excellent mma fighters because of their conditiong and stregth that was created from the NAVYS traing. I'am not an mma hater. i love it more than anything. but i know where we can be beaten. its possible for an mma fighter to be trained like a seal, but its a higher chance when your trained to kill with your hands (becuase seals could knock a mother fucker out) you'll beat any one, mma, judo, etc.

if you do not agree with me, be calm about. just argue it with me over a forum dispute.

i have to go soon, i might not be able to respond back

I'm starting to think you're a bot or something. No one is this persistent.

I have a feeling that what you're picturing is this: A mma guy and a SEAL get into "fight to the death" over a parking spot or something, and the mma guy throws a jab/cross/low-kick. He does it better than the SEAL would, but it doesn't matter because that's not what the SEAL is doing, he's throwing a finger jab, kicking to the nuts and then grabbing the guys hair. You're seeing the mma guy at a disadvantage in this situation because he naturally with throw the less bad-ass "legal" strikes that he's trained in without even thinking about it and the SEAL will use the more damaging stuff as second nature because it's what he's trained in. The whole point of this thread though is that if the mma guy does what he does better, the SEAL won't ever get a fucking chance to do his thing, as seen in the Sanders/Wolff fight. Watch the fight and tell me at exactly which point Wolf would have been able to do anything if there had been "no rules". He was getting clobbered from the first second to the last and never landed a punch. If you can't land a punch, it doesnt' matter what dirty trick you have up your sleeve. Really WATCH THE FIGHT AND USE THAT AS A BASIS FOR THIS THREAD.

6 Foot Feather
12/19/2008 1:03am,
I'm starting to think you're a bot or something. No one is this persistent.

I have a feeling that what you're picturing is this: A mma guy and a SEAL get into "fight to the death" over a parking spot or something, and the mma guy throws a jab/cross/low-kick. He does it better than the SEAL would, but it doesn't matter because that's not what the SEAL is doing, he's throwing a finger jab, kicking to the nuts and then grabbing the guys hair. You're seeing the mma guy at a disadvantage in this situation because he naturally with throw the less bad-ass "legal" strikes that he's trained in without even thinking about it and the SEAL will use the more damaging stuff as second nature because it's what he's trained in. The whole point of this thread though is that if the mma guy does what he does better, the SEAL won't ever get a fucking chance to do his thing, as seen in the Sanders/Wolff fight. Watch the fight and tell me at exactly which point Wolf would have been able to do anything if there had been "no rules". He was getting clobbered from the first second to the last and never landed a punch. If you can't land a punch, it doesnt' matter what dirty trick you have up your sleeve. Really WATCH THE FIGHT AND USE THAT AS A BASIS FOR THIS THREAD.

This is why live sparring of ANY technique is of paramount importance. You can practice eye jabs and groin strikes all day on a training dummy (a "Bob" as it's often called), but unless you have a resisting partner who will try and counter, you'll never be good at delivering anything.

So a talented fighter who has only trained on things for MMA bouts--which are limited to regulated strikes and submissions--could very well find himself blinded, dazed and in the hospital with blue balls if he were to try and pick a fight in a parking lot with an equally talented fighter who has trained the "dirty" stuff through live, full contact sparring. Fighters who work on the latter often use Muay Thai and BJJ as the "delivery system" for bites, gouges, eye jabs, groin strikes and head butts, and the sparring is done while wearing protective gear that keeps both people from hospitalizing themselves!

These days, the SEALs probably have fairly limited H2H training as a lot of cuts have been made to programs that aren't seen as a priority. I'm just speculating, but Vunak was probably one of the last civilian H2H instructors to be employed full time and stationed with the SEALs. You can bet that, with his JKD background and additional training in BJJ with the Gracies, he took a very MMA-oriented approach to working with these guys. But that was back in the early-90s. The fact of the matter is that there are probably very few altercations where a SEAL has to fight H2H or even with a knife, and the kind of stuff we see in movies such as "Under Siege" where there's a SEAL who can take out a whole group of Mercs is probably damn unrealistic. H2H is just not a priority on the battlefield when most of what you do is secretely ambush the enemy using firearms.

In fact, being able to really do the "street" stuff is probably more important to civilians who live in dense urban environments where the threat of being mugged is always present...

Hesperus
12/19/2008 1:14am,
Man...how do you train biting and eye strikes and groin gouging again?

6 Foot Feather
12/19/2008 1:58am,
Man...how do you train biting and eye strikes and groin gouging again?
Motorcycle helmets, protective cups! Cuts of steak are a great way to work on biting!

Or you can do what guys like Vunak have done: wonder into a back alley looking for the real thing...

Happy Panda
12/19/2008 2:47am,
Cuts of steak are a great way to work on biting!

You heard it here first folks, eating steak makes you a better fighter. Screw the gym, from now on I train at Outback.

PS: if you think eating steak and pretending it's a person is a good idea...you don't need martial arts, you need therapy.

Hesperus
12/19/2008 3:06am,
Cuts of steak are a great way to work on biting!

Hannibal Lector does JKD, ladies and gentleman.