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Kintanon
12/17/2008 8:36pm,
Edit: THIS is the pass I'm having trouble with:
YouTube - basic guard pass (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCYA-kdQ-JI)

I just want to throw this out to the crew here to get some input before I bring it up in class monday, if it's something super simple I won't bother, but if not at least I can get some ideas.

When passing guard I know I'm supposed to control the upper body. It gets to a point where if I stay close and tight and control the head that I'm compromising my own base and stretching my legs out. And my pass is then defeated. Umm, trying to explain better:

Doing basic over pass, Posture -> Open the guard -> Combat Base -> Pin the Knee -> Control the hips -> ????? -> Complete the Pass.

I find that as soon as I pin the knee and start trying to flatten their hips out that I get stiff armed and shoved away and then it's a scramble.

If I try to control their upper body and keep pressure on their head/shoulders then I'm freeing up their hips and they pull me back into guard.

Anyone want to throw me some tips for completing the pass from there?

I welcome ridicule as well as advice. It's all good.>:)

Lu Tze
12/17/2008 8:46pm,
This pass?

http://uk.YouTube - Knee-over Guard Pass from Closed Guard (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUawAwSB8Vo)

Kintanon
12/17/2008 8:52pm,
It's No-Gi and without the big "TRIANGLE ME" sign. I've never been advised to reach under their leg while doing the pass.

Lu Tze
12/17/2008 8:59pm,
You're talking about the Gracie gift. You won't get triangled as long as you don't rush and remember keep pressure on. AFAIK it's a viable pass no-gi too, although I don't train that.

If that's not the pass though, then I can't help ya, sorry.

M.C.
12/17/2008 9:03pm,
I hope it is okay if I ask a question on the pass shown in the Video. I don't like to do this one because I never manage to control the guy on the bottom to the extend where I feel comfortable. Because if my hands are on his hips and I can hold them there, he can just reach for a deep grip into the collar or just attack one arm (preferably the one on the side I put my knee behind his ass). Even when I have good posture he can do this.
On the other hand, if I keep my head on his stomach I'm flat and he again can attack my neck or sweep/take my back.
How do you deal with this?

Lu Tze
12/17/2008 9:10pm,
I'm no expert, I just thought the vid might help refresh his memory a little (it's the wrong pass though). Hopefully one of the jits guys will pop in here. Personally I deal with it by getting fucking swept, usually after they've contemptuously pulled half guard. I suck at this pass.

I much prefer to go under.

Das Moose
12/17/2008 9:36pm,
It's No-Gi and without the big "TRIANGLE ME" sign. I've never been advised to reach under their leg while doing the pass.

Reaching under the leg is perfectly fine if you have your shin pinning their other leg surely?

In fact I'd say its actually very helpful to completing this pass.

Kintanon
12/17/2008 9:49pm,
I think I would have the same issue if I reached under the leg, As I try to pass I am getting stiff armed, then reguarded, because I'm not high enough on their body to stop them from stiff arming. But if I get that high I let their legs go and get reguarded anyways. Both of those situations would result in me getting triangled if I reached under the leg.

I think my biggest issue is how to avoid that stiffarm as I try to finish the pass. I ALWAYS get shut down by that. I pin the leg down, they sit up into me, stiffarm, scramble, I pull guard....
The solution as demonstrated in class was to lock down their upper body after going to combat base by underhooking the far arm and locking up on their upper body. I can't reach that far. I'm either pulling myself off of their leg and back into the guard or reaching out and not getting any pressure on the upper body.

So, yes, I could reach under the leg as long as I'm stationary with the shin pinned... Hmm, I see he's backstepping from there, I might be able to do that and make it work.

I still think I'm going to get stiffarmed unless I get to the upper body before I try to come across though.

CoffeeFan
12/17/2008 11:12pm,
hmmmm.... there's a lot that could be going on, I would probably ask your coach or get video tape of yourself doing the pass for us to better evaluate the situation.

Skillful
12/17/2008 11:13pm,
Doing basic over pass, Posture -> Open the guard -> Combat Base -> Pin the Knee -> Control the hips -> and the head-> Complete the Pass.

fixed. Not sure I understand where your problem lies. Are you letting your opponent back up? Then you're not putting your weight right with your shin, and/or you're letting him move his head.

If you are preventing him from re-crossing the legs once you have the knee over his one leg and his arm under the other one, you should be passing with ease.

If that doesn't help (I'm doubtful at best), can you clarify the trouble you're having?

Kintanon
12/17/2008 11:17pm,
The issue is that I can't control the Hips And the head at the same time.

Blue Negation
12/17/2008 11:20pm,
My version of the shin pin pass:

If you're pinning down one of their legs with your shin, reach under their leg and hug it tight with the inside arm. It's safe to do so and kills their hips. (You can go for a banana split from there if all else fails too.) With your other arm you want to be digging for throat pressure, ideally grabbing the trapezius so your forearm can rest across the throat. If you can't get any pressure behind it because of the stiffarming, that's fine, you still need some form of control over his head if you want to keep control throughout the pass.

Next, assuming he's stiffarming, try to get his hands to the center of your chest, then backstep out, switching your hips and turning your shoulders. If you do this right his stiffarm should slide into the empty space where the "inside" half of your torso was. (most important part)

Then switch your hips back so they are facing him to establish normal side and to remove your formerly-pinning-with-the-shin leg. Remember to keep pressure on him by driving off of the leg that you backstep out with so he can't scoot away a bit to remove a lot of your control and scramble out. When your hips are facing his again, secure the crossface or other standard control with your head side arm and circle your arm that was scrooping his leg to block his hip or grab the head and arm control up top. Don't leave it in or they might get wonky sideways triangle ideas.

important differences from the video: use a different pressure to control the head and hips - in the vid they get a head and arm, I use a forearm on the throat to keep their head down but that doesn't stop them from turning onto their side as much as the head and arm would. That's why you have to really emphasize the pressure off of the back leg and keep tight control of the leg you have wrapped with one arm. If they are much bigger than you and this is no-gi, it is possible they might try to roll you. Be prepared to post with your head.

hasty writeup so there might be technical gaps but hope it helps

Kintanon
12/17/2008 11:25pm,
With your other arm you want to be digging for throat pressure, ideally grabbing the trapezius so your forearm can rest across the throat.

This is where I run into a problem. I can't reach further than about midchest with my forearm on 90% of people while still keeping my weight on the shin. If I reach far enough to get to the throat/head then my hips come forward and the leg gets freed.

Blue Negation
12/17/2008 11:44pm,
Are they stiffarming you from flat on their back (trying to think of why I would be able to reach the traps and you wouldn't)? I would try switching to the double shin pin (which also helps set up the banana split) while maintaining control of the leg. From here you can try some handfighting trying to get past his stiff arms and scoop the head or get the trap grip. Remember to keep turning your shoulders back and forth to try to get his stiffarms to slide past, giving you the gap you need. Also keep his legs stretched out from each other, this takes away his ability to bump you or move much and affords you the stability to do the handfighting one hand v two (but you have your shoulders to use and he doesn't).

Alternatively, (and this is my favorite pass in the world to do),... assuming you are passing to his right side and using the leg control variant, and his stiffarms just won't relent. You were pinning his right leg with your left shin. Now also pin it down with your left arm. Keep tight control of the leg you have scrooped, hug it to you. Remove your left leg from on top of his leg, stack him, start circling around - basically the gracie gift pass (this is why I like the leg grip to begin with, this combo). Go back and forth between this and the shin over until he gives you a gap.

jnp
12/18/2008 12:03am,
Are you driving your shin into the junction of their leg and torso before you drop the knee? Doing so affords better control of both his hips and allows you to reach farther without sacrificing control.

Placing the shin lower on the leg compromises your leverage as well as your reach.

Naszir
12/18/2008 5:11am,
For me, this pass works very well if I pin high with the shin as JNP said, and I pin with the shin pretty heavily, riding with as much pressure as I smoothly can. Pinning high also means my shin pins more of the leg with less effort as I am pinning the thickest part of their leg so they stay fairly well stuck most of the time. We have a larger blue belt who has actually had people tap to this pass because of how heavily he high rides their thigh.

Also, once you have the shin down are you working to negate their arms with your own? Reach should not be an issue at this point unless you are going against extremely lanky partners and you are much much shorter.