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Josh Oakley
11/15/2008 12:55am,
Okay, I'm pretty much commenting as I read that link. The first thing that pops up as odd is that I know Mr. Dux, and I've never heard him claim he fought in Vietnam.

I've seen the video, however, of him punching through bulletproof glass. If it's fake, it's a really fucking good fake.

I'm really not sure how researched this guy is. He claims Frank's 54 in the 2001 picture, and he's not even 54 right NOW.

Sam Browning
11/15/2008 3:42am,
Frank claims to have fought in Laos as part of a CIA operation when he was age 19, see page 204 of the Secret Man, published in 1996. The strange thing is that by his own story Frank didn't go through the CIA's paramilitary training course first, and it makes no sense to have sent a 19 year old just out of Marine Boot Camp when the CIA had hundreds of operatives at the time (1975, and 1976) who had previously served in Laos and actually spoke some of the languages.

Earlier he had been interviewed by John Johnson of the Los Angeles Times, and John Johnson says that Dux had made a number of claims.

"A brochure for Dux's ninjitsu schools lists him as 'one of the most decorated veterans of the Southeast Asian Conflict."

"Visitors to [Dux's] home were shown newspaper articles about him, including an editorial titled "A Silent Hero" that Dux said he clipped from the Washington Star. Told later that the newspaper's archives have no clippings about him, Dux said he could not remember the source of the editorial." The gist of the clipping was that Dux had performed heroics under fire in Southeast Asia, and that his commanding officer wrote about him in his diary.

Then Johnson says that "Dux said the military ordered his record sabotaged to discredit him. . . . Dux received his military decorations, he said after pressing the military to authenticate his heroics. One day, he said, he received a phone call and went to an address in West Los Angeles, where he was handed a paper bag filled with medals."

Then "A former teacher of Dux's at Grant High School in Van Nuys, Joe Feinstein, said Dux returned to his classes in recent years [this was before 1988] and displayed 'boxes and boxes' of medals and certificates, including he believes, a Medal of Honor.

Dux has an explaination for that. . . . "I . . . spoke to that teacher and to that class and made it clear that it doesn't become official until the orders are declassified."

Dux acknowledged that his military record is confusing and blames the government. He said he has not been able to get the military to explain why he was given medals from different branches of the service."

Quoted from John Johnson, "Ninja: Hero or Master Fake; Others Kick Holes in Fabled Past of Woodland Hills Martial Arts Teacher" Los Angeles Times, May 1, 1988, starting on page 4.

Now Dux would say that John Johnson is hiding behind the protection of the absence of malice standard and Dux can prove that Johnson lied because a receipt showing that a trophy for the Kumite which Johnson used for his article, was dated AFTER Dux appeared with his trophy in Black Belt Magazine in 1980.

Then we come to the epic meeting (which appears to be in 1988) when Dux, and his lawyer meets with at least one LA Times Editor and Dux makes the following claims.

1) He offered actual tapes of Kumite fights, and they refused to watch them. [They do not appear to be publically available even on Dux's site]

2) He confronted this unnamed editor "with the fact that the article's writer had shown a photo of someone else to Colonel Tomsky, an Armed Services public affairs officer, identifying the person in the photos as Frank Dux, he admitted that he 'had no choice' but to run the article. What he told me next shouldn't have come as a suprise, but the editor's confession still sent a chill through me: 'North' was behind the smear, he muttered. My lawyer, Michael Lucero, terrnimated the meeting right after the editor's admission." (The Secret Man, pp. 66-67)

So Frank claims that the LA Times smeared him on Ollie North's orders.

Despite allegedly having a verbal admission of this smear, Attorney Lucero did not then turn around and sue the socks of of the LA Times because such an intention to lie would have gotten around any absence of malice protection that the LA Times would have had when writing about a public figure, namely Frank Dux.

Frank: "The article was based almost totally upon falsehoods and allegations attributed to unknown or unverified sources". (The Secret Man, p. 66)

In actuality, while anonymous sources were used Johnson also quoted the following people on the record by name.

Frank Dux
Chad Minge
David Weiss
Shoto Tanemura
Curtis Wong
Jim Coleman
Chuck Cory
Kenneth Wilson, a spokesman for the Ministry of Sports in the Bahamas
Stephen Hayes
Lt Col. John Shotwell (USMC)
Lt Col. David Tomsky (USMC)
Joe Feinstein
Benny Urquidez
Sheldon Lettich, Screenwriter for the movie Bloodsport
Michael Lucero, Esq

Jeff Strompf, witness for Frank Dux's military career (did not know Frank was in the Marines, thought he was in the Army)

Richard Robinson, witness Frank met at the Kumite, (his story was completely destroyed by Johnson)

The most quoted source on Frank's military service was Frank himself. Frank could not tell a consistant story about his military decorations. Unless Johnson literally made up his conversations with Frank, Frank claimed that he had earned military decorations, which do not now show up on his official record, and that its all someone else's fault. By his 1996 book Frank was claiming that his South Eastern Asian heroics had occured while he was working for the CIA and he did not then claim that he served in a marine unit that had seen combat.

But according to the LA Times. (which he did not sue for libel) he was claiming military decorations as late as the 1980s.

Josh Oakley
11/17/2008 3:58pm,
Frank claims to have fought in Laos as part of a CIA operation when he was age 19, see page 204 of the Secret Man, published in 1996. The strange thing is that by his own story Frank didn't go through the CIA's paramilitary training course first, and it makes no sense to have sent a 19 year old just out of Marine Boot Camp when the CIA had hundreds of operatives at the time (1975, and 1976) who had previously served in Laos and actually spoke some of the languages.

Makes no sense based on what? How much about the CIA do you actually know? This seems more like conjecture than proof.

I'll get to the rest when I have time.

Gabetuno
11/17/2008 4:11pm,
It makes no sense because typically if something sounds like it should be part of a movie, 99% of the time it is not the kind of thing the government actually does.

Let me ask you, Josh. Is it at all possible that you have just been convincingly lied to? Just a thought. I don't say it to be mean.

Josh Oakley
11/17/2008 4:38pm,
Of course it's a possibility. I've done enough of my own research to not believe I'm being lied to, though.

But I made the earlier statements based on knowing friends in the NSA who were that young.

When it comes to Frank though, I've been in martial arts my whole life, and so I've seen a bunch of scams. I read a lot of good things and a lot of bad things about him, and Frank doesn't live up to the hype on either side. One thing about him is that he can move. I was honestly surprised by how much he can move, considering he's in his mid fifties.


But what convinved me he was the real deal was that I had a mentor (name shall not be divulged) that turned out to be a real scumbag, and the mention of the name raised his eye-brows. He then told me details about my old mentors life that my mentor had kept pretty secret about his life and only told me, to my knowledge. My mentor was a pretty private man. Turned out it was because pretty well connected in Louisianna crime rings.

The reason Frank knew these details was because he had done work in that area. Simply put, I don't know another person in my life who had been able to tell me these things.

I won't get into details, because I know it sounds like a story, and I'm not willing to divulge the name of my old mentor. I've cut ties with him over a year ago (not because of Frank, I've only known him a few months), and I'm not looking to involve myself with him in any way. I'm sure mentioning this guys name would get me noticed by people I don't want to get noticed by. That's why I'll stick to the public record.

But you're right, he actually could be lieing to me. That much is entirely possible. But it'd be a damn good lie. A REALLY fucking good lie.

mrm1775
11/17/2008 4:41pm,
Makes no sense based on what? How much about the CIA do you actually know? This seems more like conjecture than proof.

I'll get to the rest when I have time.It makes no sense because the CIA recruits American employees based on their qualifications, mainly education or experience, which a 19 year old PFC does not have. They do not waste their time on starry eyed kids fresh out of high school.

Dux is the one who for years has been making extraordinary claims that neither he nor anyone else can credibly back up. The onus is on him, not the agencies he claims to have worked for, to provide proof. It also shouldn't escape your notice that real CIA agents are not so flamboyant in talking about their exploits.

By the way, has anyone ever noticed that the story he peddles about the Kumite is basically the plot to Enter the Dragon?

CrackFox
11/17/2008 4:50pm,
I'm not sure what the NSA has to do with this. Their operatives work at desks doing crypto - they do not get dropped into war zones to get the girl and kill the baddies.

Josh Oakley
11/17/2008 4:52pm,
If you say so.

Sam Browning
11/17/2008 4:55pm,
It makes no sense based on published accounts about the CIA by scholars, newspaper reporters, and former members of the CIA, both pro-and anti CIA. To use a particular source, If you read the "The Book of Honor" by Ted Gup, (Anchor Books, 2000) see chapters 7 about several CIA paramilitary officers who died in Laos in 1965 you will notice that Mike Maloney and Mike Deuel were 25 and 28 respectively. They had joined the CIA after finishing college and completing the paramilitary training. While people have become CIA paramilitary officers without going through college, it is after successful military careers. (See Larry Freedman, chapter 14) James Lewis, who was also assigned to Laos as a paramilitary officer (See chapter 11) had previously served a a green beret in Vietnam with a complete tour, four bronze stars.

Now Frank's story is that he was sent off to Laos at age 19 by the CIA right after Marine Corps boot camp absent any advanced military training. The CIA would not have hired some unproven 19 year old for a sensitive mission when it had a cadre of skilled combat tested professionals available at the time.

May I also recommend "Covert Ops: The CIA's Secret War in Laos" by James Parker and published by St Martin's paperbacks in 1997. Parker's book which was originally published by the Naval Institute Press. Before being recruited Parker had already served a tour as a platoon leader in the first division in Vietnam, and then finished up a university degree. Even as a combat vet, Parker had to complete a lengthy background check and paramilitary training before being deployed to Laos in the early 1970s. There are other books which indicate that the CIA doesn't hire American paramilitary officers who are barely out of highschool.

mrm1775
11/17/2008 4:58pm,
I'm not sure what the NSA has to do with this. Their operatives work at desks doing crypto - they do not get dropped into war zones to get the girl and kill the baddies.Same with most CIA guys.

CrackFox
11/17/2008 5:21pm,
I should also point out that the NSA provide a massive amount of academic funding for high performance computing, maths and related disciplines.

Josh, what were your friends doing, were they working for the NSA directly, or were they on NSA funding and attached to some academic institution? 19 sounds a little young, as they generally fund postgrad and postdoc level stuff, but they do occasionally throw the undergrads a bone.

It is Fake
11/17/2008 5:34pm,
Now we have a large amount of discussion going on right now. Let me try and separate the current claim.

Josh Oakley is claiming 19 year old friends, apparently working for the the NSA, proves that the CIA used 19 year old operatives back in 1970 whatever?

DuckofDeath
11/17/2008 6:05pm,
"After training with Tanaka for several years Dux was called to serve in Vietnam, and came out of the experience with a chestful of medals and a basic distrust of institutions like the military."

Michelle Klein, "Frank Dux: The Man Behind the Legend," Inside Kung Fu Presents: Complete Guide to Ninja Training, May 1987, 48-53, at 50.

Ms Klein was obviously hired by the CIA to discredit Hanshi Dux by making false claims about his service in Vietnam.

Gabetuno
11/17/2008 8:36pm,
If I'm not mistaken, someone has yearbook photos of Frank that demonstrably proves he would have been too young to serve in Vietnam, AND was in fact living in the US attending a PS when he claims he was living with his adoptive Japanese mentor. Anyone else remember this?

DuckofDeath
11/17/2008 9:07pm,
Check out this link for the Bercy show:

http://www.fasstduxryu.com/videos/index.html

Could someone preserve this little gem for our analysis and viewing pleasure?

Sam Browning
11/17/2008 9:08pm,
There is a picture of Frank in a Marine Uniform with the title "Graduation Day, MCRD, 1975"

Saigon fell on April 30, 1975. Regular Marine Combat Units had not fought in Vietnam since 1971. During Operation Frequent Wind, on April 29th and 30th, Marine Units were brought back to Saigon and a few other locations to help with evacuating U.S. personal and refugees.

Even if Frank graduated training before April 30, 1975 he would have had to have been deployed to one of a small number of regular units helping with this operation to see any sort of action in Vietnam with the Marines.

As a reservist I doubt he would have been attached to one of these units and did not mention taking part in this operation in "The Secret Man".