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FCTKD
12/18/2003 11:51am,
Do you think instructors should have to be a certain ranking before they are allowed to teach TMA? I think alot of techniques have been lost over the years due to most instructors only becoming blackbelts or 3rd or 4th degree. Shouldn't you have graduated the whole system so you can teach the whole system? This is one of the reasons why I think many of the tma aren't as good as they should be anymore. after many generations of this imagine how much we lost. I would love for every instructor to have to be an 8th dan but I know it's not practical just once you start instructing you dan rankings should be going up too as your students do.

The Wastrel
12/18/2003 11:53am,
You know if techniques are sound if you are using them, not because you've attained a certain Dan ranking. There is no other way to ensure quality.

Ronin
12/18/2003 11:59am,
By 3 or even 4th dan, you better have learened ALL the good ****, or what elese have you been doing for the last 10-15 years??
Really, in TMA, KATA's are the only thing that really denote advanced dan ranking.
A 3rd dan MAY not know a 5th dan kata, but he SHOULD know a 5th dan technique, sonsidering that there are NO 5th dan "secret" techniques, or 4th, or 3rd, etc.

Dochter
12/18/2003 12:08pm,
Guess I've misunderstood, damn near all the instructor's I see around are 8th dan's, or more.

Even in the "traditional" ranking (aka **** invented in the last 8o years) promotions beyond 4th or 5th are strictly political anyway, "contributions to the art" bs. In other words: NO.

The reason TMA people like me suck is that we don't spar often or hard enough.

FCTKD
12/18/2003 12:11pm,
the application and understanding of the techniques may be better, but than again I guess you'd have used all the techniques enough by than you'd know what works. I thought by black belt you should learn all the techniques and after that you learn how to apply them all. But if you know all the techniques what motivation if any is there to advance your ranking?

Dochter
12/18/2003 12:15pm,
IMO if you don't know how to apply the techniques, you don't know how to fight. If you don't know how to fight you shouldn't have a black belt. This is why the objective grading system of arts like bjj resonate with many of the people here. In short not everyone is capable of reaching that level of skill, and as such should not acheive that rank.

Mufi
12/18/2003 12:15pm,
I havn't noticed any particular increase in technique after 1st Dan. 1st to 4th Dan is usually about how much better you perform the techniques not the number of techniques that you know. After 4th it's political or you've just invented your own style.

The number of techniques known is not as important as an ability to perform them in my opinion. I'd rather be able to perform 5 techniques well than 250 techniques badly. You often see people with encyclopedic knowledge of hundreds of techniques forms or katas, but no real ability to perform.

yanewbs
12/18/2003 12:24pm,
FCTKD - That seems to be the debate (misunderstanding)

Should Black Belt mean you have learned all the techniques, and now begin to learn to apply them.

Or should black belt mean you have learned some of the techniques but you know how to apply them, and have trained applying them.

I for one think the later makes more sense - but that's just me.

I'd rather be a 1st degree black belt with 10 concepts that I can actually use in a fight (and have trained them in a realistic manner against a fully resisting opponent), rather than a 1st degree black belt with 30 concepts of which I can not apply any of them yet.

Dochter
12/18/2003 12:26pm,
On the other hand if in your art it is routine to be a 3rd dan in only 3 years, then yes you're going to need to be a higher rank to be able to do much of anything.

The bjj school I recently joined operates out of a beautiful tkd facility. It seems everyone has several stripes on their black belts. In contrast the head bjj instructor is a brown belt, I've seen two purples, a bunch of blues and gazillions of white belts. None of the blues have been doing bjjfor less than a year and a half.

Ronin
12/18/2003 12:28pm,
Has anyone seen a 6th dan do a technique that NO ONE has seen before?
Or a 5th dan? or a 4th for that matter??
You pretty much learn ALL the techniques you style has to offer by 2nd or 3rd.

yanewbs
12/18/2003 12:31pm,
Dochter - I train at a BJJ school that subleases from a TKD school - same scenario, TKD advanced black belts everywhere (I'm not going to comment on what I see them do, let's just say it's amusing - I think they too are amused by us rolling around on the ground and fighting hard) - and the head of the BJJ school is a brown belt, there is another purple belt, a few blues and the rest whites (I live nowhere near NV so it can't be the same school).

yanewbs
12/18/2003 12:34pm,
Ronin - I have seen 6th (and higher) dans do techniques I have never seen before. The problem is, in every case that I have seen - the techniques demonstrated would only work on a non-resisting opponent. They look great for demonstrations but are pure garbage - I am talking about techniques that I have never seen before (I've been doing martial arts for 20+ years so feel qualified to spot the garbage)

drunkenj
12/18/2003 12:35pm,
in france to teach judo you have to not only have a high ranking, you also have to do a two year government course to be allowed to open, that is the way to insure quality---- bluming talks about it in an interview posted here somewhere

yanewbs
12/18/2003 12:37pm,
Ronin - I have seen styles that teach many techniques at each dan level. What I have noticed is that the techniques appear to be different, but the underlying fighting principles are the same - just packaged differently. This is just from my personal experience.

yanewbs
12/18/2003 12:38pm,
DrunkenJ - 'that is the way to insure quality'

what type of quality - business, teaching, fighting...

Ronin
12/18/2003 12:45pm,
I have to be honest, I am surprised that there are styles that reserve techniques till that high a ranking, what are they?
I mean in Judo, by 2nd or 3rd you have learnt pretty much all of judo, someting with Karate.
I am not refering to katas, but even in katas, what techniques are there that you haven't learned already? what punch? what kick? what Lock, what throw?