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MrSheen
12/07/2003 4:27pm,
Just something that occured to me today while our master was giving us a lecture on discipline and the like. Anyway, he was telling us about the difference in difficulty of the training from when he learnt it.

He said he cant work us that hard for the simple fact that half of the people wouldn't be upto it and that he has to strike a balance to keep the training difficult but not hard enough to drive people away. I think this is one of the greatest problems with a lot of TMA's, the training has to be diluted to keep students attending, which i suppose is fair enough in a business sense.

I dunno what do you guys think? Obviously there are a number of schools that still have very intensive training, it just it seems to me if the training is easier then it's degraded and therefore so is the art as a whole.

Mr. Mantis
12/07/2003 4:42pm,
Good point bub. Sounds like an opportunity to rally the class to go back to the more intense situation, or start looking for some serious people.

The Crack Taoist
12/07/2003 6:52pm,
This is one reason to start a private "training club" in your garage (if you have
one). In my main art there are numerous drills which I can do with a partner
that don't need an instructors eye on them.. you probably have them too.
Find the person in the class that can't always make it to class (maybe cause
of work or family) and encourage them to train with you outside class.
In my case there's a Navy guy whose on the subs and can't come to class
as often as he'd like because of duty. Then you can find people who
"studied something once" or are too lazy/undisciplined/impoverished to
pay for a class. All these folks can be led to believe "intensity can compensate
for frequency" :) (Best to have both obviously)
With luck, they will follow your lead on training intensity, especially if you
are senior. You can often virtuously manipulate them into going further
than they normally would.. which will help everyone.

Another thing is to find the best apparatus or solo training methods in your
art and hit them super hard. Then get your teacher to beat on you after
class. I find this works well, cause most instructors like to believe they
trained FAR harder than "the pansies these days". They may be willing
to push you, which is good for them, strokes their ego, and helps you
develop. They may even wind up *giving* you privates where they will
inevitably reveal more than they might in a class situation.

Good luck.

bunyip
12/07/2003 6:55pm,
Sorry, but I'm going to have to side with your teacher on this one, to a point. Let's say you wanted to become a faster swimmer. If your coach demanded the level of committment from you that the US Olympic team demands from its athletes, I doubt you would last very long. I don't know your instructor, but if he was training at an elite level when he was learning the art, clearly he would have to tone it down somewhat for his students.

What IS important is that you are being pushed at a level appropriate to your goals. If you don't feel that you're training hard enough, then you should talk to your instructor. While it is his reponsibility not to push his students so hard that he drives them away, it is also his responsibility to push them hard enough that they are satisfied with the progress they're making.

Edit: Just saw deepbluehalo's post. Good points. I agree.

drunkenj
12/07/2003 7:00pm,
yup some people are pansies------ at the moment the place i train has one coach with a softly softly approach, and one who just beasts you. that works well cause some people like it soft and some people thrive on 'hardcore training'............ as dbh said training outside lass is a good way to get hard training------ or if you let your coach know that you are keen to up the intensity he will probably accomadate you, after all you are paying him...... also when i want a bit extra i make sure that i randori just with my coach or one of the blackbelts----- there is no point spanking some begginer if you want to improve fast

Punisher
12/07/2003 8:02pm,
Most people's stories about the "good old days" are bullshit, in or out of the martial arts. I'm not calling your instructor a liar, but I hate it when people say "our training used to be better, but it now has been watered down because of...".

My instructor has never told one of these stories. In fact he is constantly telling us on how much BETTER, the material and training methods of our school are today than when he was growing up. He is always saying how much better many of his students are at a certain rank than he was when he was of similar age and experience.

Choke
12/07/2003 8:18pm,
I've heard my ryu used to train alot harder when the grandmaster was younger. Now that he has grown older it's more about the mental aspect of fighting than the physical conditioning aspect. Thankfully my chief instrutor took a lot time off during this evolution and represents the older ways in which he was initially taught. The assistant instructor however has changed with the ryu and represents the new mindset.

Though I prefer the more intense training I concede that the newer attitude has it's strengths as well. Some things shouldnt change while others should evolve.

Leodom
12/07/2003 9:54pm,
Originally posted by hull123
I think this is one of the greatest problems with a lot of TMA's, the training has to be diluted to keep students attending, which i suppose is fair enough in a business sense.

I dunno what do you guys think? Obviously there are a number of schools that still have very intensive training, it just it seems to me if the training is easier then it's degraded and therefore so is the art as a whole.

An approach that works in our school is that there is an additional conditioning class available for those who want to take it. No additional charge, no new material, just a helluva tough workout. Pansies don't come to the conditioning class more than once.

MrSheen
12/08/2003 6:26am,
Originally posted by Punisher
Most people's stories about the "good old days" are bullshit, in or out of the martial arts. I'm not calling your instructor a liar, but I hate it when people say "our training used to be better, but it now has been watered down because of...".

My instructor has never told one of these stories. In fact he is constantly telling us on how much BETTER, the material and training methods of our school are today than when he was growing up. He is always saying how much better many of his students are at a certain rank than he was when he was of similar age and experience.

i am inclined to believe him, since he did train under grandmaster lee in malaysia since like the early 70's. You are right though, we of course cannot know exactly how hard it was or if it was better training. I'm sure he'd say he tries to keep up to the standard at least he just has to cut back on intensity.

MMA_Phil
12/08/2003 6:56am,
"He said he cant work us that hard for the simple fact that half of the people wouldn't be upto it and that he has to strike a balance to keep the training difficult but not hard enough to drive people away."

So why can't he do one night a week hardcore, for those that are interested?
Tougher training does drive some people away, but it attracts others whom would be put off by soft training.

MrSheen
12/08/2003 7:05am,
well because he wouldn't get as many students, therefore not making the money to pay for the sports halls, combat rooms, etc that the lessons are held in. maybe a smaller venue would be ok but i'd prefer to use a combat room if we were doing intesive training.

Ronin
12/08/2003 7:50am,
Its not so much that people are pansies as much as it is due to the fact that most, probably a good 90% of people do NOT practise MA for fighting, its more for "fun", as a hobby, for exercise and even as a spiritual/mental disciplne.
For those of us who are interested or need the combat aspects of the MA, there are many school available, you just have to find the right one.

drunkenj
12/08/2003 8:48am,
jeezuz ronin, are they puttin roids in moosehead these days or somthing?

Ronin
12/08/2003 8:55am,
I will have you know, I like imported beer, Stella Artois, is my current flavour of the month.
It has been serving rougues and gentlemen for centuries :)

Justme
12/08/2003 8:59am,
I know for me I practice mostly for fitness.... side benefit is maybe I would be able to defend myself if need be..... I mean golf is great fitness and walking and all... but how often can you walk around beating people with a golf club....

SLJ
12/08/2003 8:59am,
Stella is horrible stuff... Arnold.