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Veridian
12/04/2003 3:39pm,
My Wing Chun (Sp?) friend recently loaned me a tape of the "American Black Belt Championships", which took place in the Thunderdome in Santa Barbara Califorinia.

Two things about this competion really bothered me-

First, the competitors had to do acrobatics/gymnastics to win.
There were some very good (IMO) traditional Karate and Kung-Fu stylists there, and when they would do thier forms the announcers (Cynthea Rothrock and Karen Shepard) would say things like "Oh wow, look at this woman, she has chosen to lose this tournament by demonstrating a traditional form, and keeping the traditional stuff alive, how noble, daring etc.."

Is this what MA tounaments are coming to? All it takes to beat a very well trained traditional martial artist is a few backflips and cart-wheels (and ridiculous outfits). It made me sick watching it.

Second, Jon Valera was the favorite to win this tournament, and he did, but the announcers were saying how he was probably going to win the entire time. I personally thought Dave Macomber should have won, which brings me to my point. These forms tournaments are purely subjective. Whoever the judges say wins, wins. With who wins simply being some judges' decision, it would be better if they didn't even know who the competitor was, or what style they are (some judges are bias toward their own style, especially TKD ones). I don't think it was fair that the annoucers didn't say much good about any of the other competitors because they were too busy sucking Jon Valera's dick the entire time.

Anyone seen this? What did you guys think about this stuff?

Ronin
12/04/2003 3:42pm,
It was called "american" right? so... no misleading there.

Veridian
12/04/2003 3:45pm,
I don't understand why MA doesn't win a MA tounament? I think I am going to go enter a gymnastics tournament and start doing my MA forms. Maybe the reverse will work, who knows?

rmclain
12/04/2003 3:48pm,
I saw the same-type thing in Dallas tounaments. I think it was the AOK (American Organization of Karate)? Always, the winners were doing some sort of flip or handspring routine in their demonstration.

R. McLain

Omega Supreme
12/04/2003 3:49pm,
LOL..... I'm in that video!!!!! bwahahahahaahahahahaahahahahahahah. They didn't show my full contact fight though.

Phrost
12/04/2003 3:50pm,
I find it amazing that someone can hold a Martial Arts tournament without it including any fighting whatsoever.

Omega Supreme
12/04/2003 3:53pm,
Actually phrost the rules were similiar to San Shou rules except no throwing off the stage. During the eliminations there was some serious slams and blood. The funny thing was that we didn't use mats during the sparring eliminations. 3 concussions if I remember right. I won the Kung-fu division and beat my guy in the finals but they didn't show the fight.

Ronin
12/04/2003 3:54pm,
Outside of the Kyokushin and seidokan and the sabaki tournaments, are there ANY MA tournaments worth even talking about?

rainfall
12/04/2003 3:55pm,
My personal view is that judging a black belt's "performance" of a form is utterly useless. Forms "performance" is a useful tool to a beginner who is still learning basics. After black belt, "performance" is useful only as a show, and if you are interested in martial ability, who cares who's the better showman? It is crap like these competitions that validate kata detractors.

If kata is reduced to nothing more than a show, then it is useless. If kata has real value, then you can't judge it as a show because its use probably won't manifest itself in such a way that random spectators will appreciate. Reminds me of the dao de jing - true words are never pretty, pretty words are never true.

Phrost
12/04/2003 3:57pm,
Originally posted by omega
Actually phrost the rules were similiar to San Shou rules except no throwing off the stage. During the eliminations there was some serious slams and blood. The funny thing was that we didn't use mats during the sparring eliminations. 3 concussions if I remember right. I won the Kung-fu division and beat my guy in the finals but they didn't show the fight.

I was speaking in general, but once I read that you were in it I realized there was probably some actual punching and kicking involved.

Veridian
12/04/2003 3:58pm,
They did have fighting, but it was VERY VERY sloppy. One fight in particular had one really big agressive guy that was always off balance and simply flailing his arms about wildly, he fell down several times because when he couldn't even throw a front kick without falling on his A$$. But he was driving the other guy back. Then the annoucers were saying afterwards that he should have won, all except for Bill Wallace who pointed out that he was off balance and sloppy where the other guy was using very clean reverse punches the whole time.

Kempocos
12/04/2003 4:00pm,
question , considering the number of tournaments that happen every month how many people will be able to say " I AM THE KARATE WORLD CHAMPION " . If you keep it to the USA , perhaps 75 to one 125. so what is the point of these types of tournaments. At least in NHB the say " K1 CHAMP " or " UFC CHAMP " not " WORLD CHAMPION implying they beat the best in the world not just those in the southwest part of the town they live in.

Omega Supreme
12/04/2003 4:00pm,
Yeah, and some major egos there too. Stephen Quadros was there and I was going off on all the bullshit behind the scenes. That one female announcer rubbed me the wrong way too. They didn't show any of the seriously good fight. I think they wanted it toned down for the PPV audience.

Phrost
12/04/2003 4:01pm,
Originally posted by Veridian
They did have fighting...

...the other guy was using very clean reverse punches the whole time.

Hehe, reverse punches.

Veridian
12/04/2003 4:04pm,
Originally posted by Phrost
Hehe, reverse punches.

Why is that funny?

Omega Supreme
12/04/2003 4:04pm,
Originally posted by Veridian
They did have fighting, but it was VERY VERY sloppy. One fight in particular had one really big agressive guy that was always off balance and simply flailing his arms about wildly, he fell down several times because when he couldn't even throw a front kick without falling on his A$$. But he was driving the other guy back. Then the annoucers were saying afterwards that he should have won, all except for Bill Wallace who pointed out that he was off balance and sloppy where the other guy was using very clean reverse punches the whole time.

Actually the guys name was Lowell. Really nice guy. They picked him and Mike Pombeiro to win before the fights even started which pissed me off. They wanted those two fights because they best showed control and didn't seriousl mess up their opponents.