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mrgoshthereturn
7/07/2008 11:46am,
OK as a beginner in shoto-KAI thats done soem shoto-KAN. I can point out some differences

1) Relaxed posture, we try to relax into out moves rather than tensing up, hence we try to throw punches from the rear leg and through the body, literally throwing the punch, aiming for penetrative rather than knocknback power. one problem with this is it looks more sloppy the same way bjj looks sloppier than xma

2) we try to keep the center of gravity on the hips and waist, we don't lean back to hgain height on kicks, rather we flick out our kicks, fort the same reason as above

3) BIG one here. We don't do competition. We do free spar after about 6 to 18 months depending on school/level. But there are no medals or championchips. Hopefully if an opponent is better than you he'll tell you how to improve. The faster your up to his standard, the harder it is for him to win, so he gets to trains at a higher level. And btw, Harada still free spars at least twice a week.

4) there is an emphasis on kata as a technical guide, it has several techniques which you can use to show flow and transition. It is not kumite, as an analogy its the difference on reading a book on how to drive and going on the freeway (rubbish analogy i know) one shows you the basic and a lot of other stuff and you neee to have read the highway code but its very different to real life (kumite)

To an outside observer our karate looks sloppy, lazy, and lacking in power. Theres no effort visible. Shotokan will get you fitter, you'll really be able to stop punching someone in the face really quickly, as we don't focus blows at skin level our contact is a little harder (it should bruise if you hit someone and my instructor did get his nose broken once.) nut on the downside it thakes you longer to get to spar, you won't be as conditioned in the first 6-12 months...but hey if you really wanna learn something with no kata and thats really effective with no gi or philosophical aspect, go and do muay thai (those guys are amazing strikers!)

Finally in answer to the accusations, in my opinion Harada does not teach bullshido. Bust this is opinion and i am biased. The training is quite alive for a TMA, but you do have to be patient.

Shotokan is still a wonderful competition style, and it does look absolutely spectacular (i wish i could kick that high and sound so focused) alas i am lazy. Shotokan is not for me. I love studying shotokai and i find that i am slowly getting more balance and power.

I think that's enough for now. I await the critiques that will follow

maofas
7/08/2008 12:24pm,
Fyi, Toyotaro Miyazaki (a Kenkojuku-lineage Shotokan Instructor) started an organization called the Int'l Shotokai Federation which might be responsible for some of the confusion as to whether Shotokai is Shotokan or a seperate style. In HIS case, he's teaching Shotokan and Shotokai is just the name of his organization.

mrgoshthereturn
7/08/2008 12:34pm,
similarly enough brazilian shotokan is actually from harada, and is more similar to shotokai...it's very confusing

It is Fake
7/08/2008 1:28pm,
Has Mitsusuke Harada of KDS devolved into teaching Bullshido? - No BS Martial Arts (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=52272)
^^Culled.

This thread was a lineage debate. Bumping it with a critique in differences between ShotoKai and Shotokan doesn't add to the "bullshido Karate" claim.

Squerlli
7/08/2008 1:29pm,
Guess what?

Mas Oyama would beat your ass and your sensei's ass.
Kyokushin wins again.

BudoMonkey
7/08/2008 1:47pm,
Your shotokai sounds like bs compared to good shotokan.

WorldWarCheese
7/08/2008 3:00pm,
the same way bjj looks sloppier than xma
I can't... stop.... giggling.....


BIG one here.
OOOOOOOHHHHHHH YEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!!!!!!


We don't do competition.
It's okay, we can't all be like Judo.


rubbish analogy i know
So does everyone else.


To an outside observer our karate looks sloppy, lazy, and lacking in power.
Which obviously isn't true because.........


we don't focus blows at skin level our contact is a little harder
IT MAKES SO MUCH SENSE!!!


instructor did get his nose broken once.
I'd look for a *shocked* smiley, but I'm hungry and trying to wrap this up.


nut on the downside
Tee-hee, you said "nut"


i am lazy.
We hold this truth to be self evident.

This was fun ^_^

3moose1
7/08/2008 3:40pm,
Lol, when shoto-kai produces an elusive fighter, in the UFC, who is quite elusive


then we will hear your stupid opinions.

Petter
7/08/2008 4:30pm,
It's funny. I saw this thread title and clicked it reflexively. I used to practice with Canada Shotokan, affiliated with Ohshima's SKA; in terms of affiliation and history they're closer to Egami's Shotokai, but (I'm told) it looks more like JKA Shotokan -- somewhere in between (to my eyes, JKA-ers looked stiff and tense tense; Shotokai people looked floppy). I was about to set out the historical divide, funeral flag debaucle, and all that ****.

Then I realised that I can't even make myself bother (in spite of how boring work is today). Ultimately, what matters to me is how big a portion of what I learned in CSK turns out to be useful in sparring with people from a different background in my kickboxing classes (answer: most of the kicking, a little bit of footwork, none of the punching; caveat: pretty light sparring so far).

All three lineages suffer from the same core problem, which is a lack of objective evaluation in the form of competition, or even alive sparring with people from different martial arts backgrounds (sparring is good, but spar only your fellows and you may never find anyone who exposes the holes and weaknesses characteristic of your style). Neither history, nor philosophy, nor theories of striking and Egami's famous reinventing-the-punch epiphany, can alter this.

ADM
7/08/2008 4:33pm,
Lol, when shoto-kai produces an elusive fighter, in the UFC, who is quite elusive


then we will hear your stupid opinions.

:notworthy

To the OP, I think you contradicted yourself numerous times ... too many times. Also not doign competition isn't so much a terrible thing, but pressure testing your skill in open tournaments (open to everyone) will only ever make you better.

Now to go do some penetration punches into someones skin (but harder).

WorldWarCheese
7/08/2008 4:35pm,
Okay, so joke post aside (really, dude, a Karate A vs Karate B thread?) I youtube'd dis here vid and if what you do is what these guys do, then it's not so bad IMO (then again, I'm not a striker).

YouTube - Campeonato kumite PARTE 1. Karate Shotokai (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7Xwdws9ABg)

Petter
7/08/2008 4:41pm,
Also not doign competition isn't so much a terrible thing, but pressure testing your skill in open tournaments (open to everyone) will only ever make you better.
More than that. I've never yet competed in BJJ and will almost certainly never compete in kickboxing (too much of a pansy, I guess). However, because my kickboxing coach has competed, I know that he has the kind of skills that can be put in the ring. Because my BJJ instructor not only competes, but also produces students who compete successfully, I know that I receive training good enough to put winners on the mats (Tim can both do and teach). Competitive pressure prevents the teaching from getting inbred: If Tim's students all had a hole in their game, it would be found and exploited at open tournaments, and presumably fixed. (Whether I will ever be good enough to place in a tournament is, of course, very debatable, but I have solid evidence that I'm at least getting good training -- the rest is up to me.)

It's been said before on these boards: Whether you ever plan to compete enough, only by practicing with people who do compete can you be sure of receiving instruction good enough for competitors.

ADM
7/08/2008 4:42pm,
WorldWarCheese: Indeed that isn't bad, but wasn't that a competition? And also this guy doesn't spar from 6 - 18 months after starting :\

ADM
7/08/2008 4:44pm,
More than that. I've never yet competed in BJJ and will almost certainly never compete in kickboxing (too much of a pansy, I guess). However, because my kickboxing coach has competed, I know that he has the kind of skills that can be put in the ring. Because my BJJ instructor not only competes, but also produces students who compete successfully, I know that I receive training good enough to put winners on the mats (Tim can both do and teach). Competitive pressure prevents the teaching from getting inbred: If Tim's students all had a hole in their game, it would be found and exploited at open tournaments, and presumably fixed. (Whether I will ever be good enough to place in a tournament is, of course, very debatable, but I have solid evidence that I'm at least getting good training -- the rest is up to me.)

It's been said before on these boards: Whether you ever plan to compete enough, only by practicing with people who do compete can you be sure of receiving instruction good enough for competitors.

Very well written Sir, and I couldn't agree more. I'm not sure if I ever looked at it like that before. Pretty happy I train where I train then.

foxguitar
7/08/2008 6:07pm,
Fyi, Toyotaro Miyazaki (a Kenkojuku-lineage Shotokan Instructor) started an organization called the Int'l Shotokai Federation which might be responsible for some of the confusion as to whether Shotokai is Shotokan or a seperate style. In HIS case, he's teaching Shotokan and Shotokai is just the name of his organization.


Miyazaki Sensei , in his prime was unfricking believable one of the best Ive have seen .

he was a direct student of Okano sensei who studied under Funakoshi himself.

mrgoshthereturn
7/09/2008 12:51pm,
sorry, didn't mean to start a lineage war. Just tihe point that shotokan and shotokai are different and have different philosophes about how to throw, punches and kicks, and so on... what loosk sloppy to a shotokan practisioner looks correct to a shotokai practicioner and what looks correct from shotokan's point of view looks rigid to a shotokai guy. my point originally was (reflecting back on the bullshido argument) that claiming the art is bullshido because you don't really understand the aims of the art is possibly down to mis-information.

And by the way i do agree that multi-style training is a good idea. That's why i cross train and am willing to go on the mat with pretty much anyone. But that's me not shotokai. Gotta ask though? Why the inevitable comparisons to BJJ and Judo? Both are very good grappling arts but if you were gonna compare skotokan/kai to other arts surely kyushinkai and muay thai would be more suiting (and i'm not saying it compares favourably, just it would be a more apt comparison)